Born Agains:- What do you beileve?

by LouBelle 24 Replies latest jw friends

cameo-d

Historically, the rapture has refered to the resurrection of believers and non-believers.
I'm not pretrib, but, Never heard of the "rapture" including nonbelievers before. Can you give me a source.
I think this is in Luke. It says two will be at the mill...one will be taken and one left.
Two will be in bed, one taken, one left. Two in the field one taken, one left.
This is the verse many xtians use to "prove" the rapture. Problem is they don't read a few verses down. Luke asks Jesus "where are they taken" and Jesus answers, "Where the vultures are, that's where the bodies are." (They are taken to their death)
In other words, they are being stealthly, quietly, sneakily...taken in the middle of the night without warning.....
(at the mill) perhaps out doing errands and grocery shopping...when suddenly they are singled out for abduction...
(in the field) which is at work....someone comes for them and they are taken away never to be heard from again.
They are all taken to their deaths. WHy? because they are opposers of some sinister plan in the works and they know too much. They are taken away to be kept quiet. Yes, they are "taken out of the way."
What this tells me is that these people are taken because others know where to find them.That's why some will be given the word to FLEE at a particular time.
wha happened?

This is an issue I've had with some friends and work mates over the years. The idea of salvation. For whom, and how. As a witness I was always accused of trying to earn salvation. Number of hours, RV's, blah blah blah. But I hated the idea thrown at me of Once saved always saved. I never thought my hours each month made a damn bit of difference because I knew of pioneers that were knocking boots. So their sincerity wasn't there. I also hated the idea of a free get out of jail card.

Unfortunately, to the same degree I get completely dogmatic answers from JW's I also get a complete diversification of answers from every Christian I know who believes in the rapture. And yet everyone adamantly holds to their viewpoint as scriptural.

Ya know what, the hell with it. I'm leaving for the day and having a glass of wine and declaring it all shiet.
Brother Apostate

I am born again, per John 3:1-21:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/167029/3092545/post.ashx#3092545
http://isv.scripturetext.com/john/3.htm
So I will answer as follows:
1. Paying tithe: I was told by the leaders of the church that this is a mandate from God/the bible and it plays a key roll in doing the will of the lord.
Answer A: This is an Old Testament (1/10 of income) remnant of the Mosaic Law which was done away with via the New Covenant instituted by Christ. The Christian principle is found in Matthew 7:12; Luke 6:31, 10:25-28; and elsewhere in the New Testament. The Golden Rule and the Parable of the Good Samaritan offer clarity on this subject.
Answer B: Who cares what the "leaders of the church" taught- look it up in thre Bible, make sure of all things, keep questioning every "inspired utterance", etc.
2. Once saved...always saved & a constant laying your sins at the fot of the cross.
OSAS (Once saved...always saved)- utter nonsense- google it, there is a plethora of Scripture against that teaching. Ask me and I'll post at least twenty five Scriptures that prove otherwise.
Laying your sins at the foot... Well, yes, we need to be truthful, and confess our sins and sinful nature, justy as all of God's servants in the Bible did. Again, ask, and I'll post at least twenty five Scriptures that prove so, in this case.
3. The belief in the rapture
Utter nonsense. Pre-trib, post trib, whatever. It is a man-made construct, not found in Scripture. Ask for Scriptures to prove it and I will post them.
4. That the tribulation is a literal time of events and that all those things in the book of revelation will come to pass...literally.
Honestly can't answer that one completely. Revelation will be fulfilled completely (at least) figuratively, perhaps some, or all of it will also be fulfilled literally. Time will tell.
5. That christ will then literally come back to earth and set up his kingdom in Jerusalem.
Scripture (Revelation), when read outside of denominational leanings and interpretations, makes clear that this Earth will be destroyed, a new earth will be created, upon which a new Jerusalem, with Temple, will be. Literal or Figurative? That is the question.
BA
myelaine

dear cameo-d...
"I think this is in Luke. It says two will be at the mill...one will be taken and one left.
Two will be in bed, one taken, one left. Two in the field one taken, one left.
This is the verse many xtians use to "prove" the rapture. Problem is they don't read a few verses down. Luke asks Jesus "where are they taken" and Jesus answers, "Where the vultures are, that's where the bodies are." (They are taken to their death)
In other words, they are being stealthly, quietly, sneakily...taken in the middle of the night without warning.....
(at the mill) perhaps out doing errands and grocery shopping...when suddenly they are singled out for abduction...
(in the field) which is at work....someone comes for them and they are taken away never to be heard from again.
They are all taken to their deaths. WHy? because they are opposers of some sinister plan in the works and they know too much. They are taken away to be kept quiet. Yes, they are "taken out of the way."
What this tells me is that these people are taken because others know where to find them.That's why some will be given the word to FLEE at a particular time."...
...how can you sleep at night?...
proverbs 30:5...every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
cameo-d

...how can you sleep at night?...
I sleep because I don't think I am in Enoch's top ten. Isn't it the cream of the crop xtians that always get thrown to the lions?
proverbs 30:5...every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Michelle, I really enjoy the books of Proverbs and Psalms and think there is a lot of wisdom to be found there. But also, there are hints of religion's origins in that 'god' is employed as an 'avenger' . Prayers for enemies first came about as an oath uttered for vengence. People prayed for god to kill their enemies.
However, the text I paraphrased is from Jesus' words spoken to Luke. Your chosen verse seems to implicate "divine protection" from this OT god. Yet, Jesus does not uphold this idea. In regard to Jesus's words to Luke concerning "one taken, one left" and in being taken to where the vultures are, Jesus's only words of comfort are this:' fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul' (Matt.10:28) and "fear none of those things you are to suffer" (Rev. 2:10) Never does Jesus say there will be any divine protection or rescue by good angels or anything supernatural to 'save' you from suffering or torture.
Back to topic: The rapture
Luke 17:
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. (some translations say "vultures")
Do you not agree that this scripture describes being abducted and taken away to be killed?
wozadummy

It is confusing with so many different churches. Some things are commonly believed amongst BA's but they all seem to differ to some degree ,which leaves me wondering what God thinks of that. But as for me at present it is a matter of "same turd ,different color".
Deputy Dog

XJW You said
Historically, the rapture has refered to the resurrection of believers and non-believers.
I've read many on the covenantal side, and I've yet to hear one use the term "rapture" in connection with nonbelievers. Who historically said or taught anything like this? I'm not looking for the scripture they used. In fact, I've never heard the term "rapture" used to describe the resurrection. I always hear it used to describe the "changing" in 1 Corinthians 15, and looking at the passage in context, I don't see how this can be related to nonbelievers.
1Co 15:50
Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55 "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.
Salvation is three-fold in its affect on humanity. First, we are saved from the penalty of sin. Next, we are saved from the power of sin. Lastly, we will be saved from the presencse of sin. The first was at regeneration, ie. the born again experience. The second is ongoing through the Holy Spirit's progressive sanctification of the believer. The last will happen at glorification.
I think we agree that we won't stop sinning until glorification.
You said
If you mean, "once saved always saved no matter what you do" then there is a problem.
So, what's the problem? If someone is saved, they're not going to try to sin even more.
Deputy Dog

cameo-d
Luke 17:
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. (some translations say "vultures")
Do you not agree that this scripture describes being abducted and taken away to be killed?
No. We don't agree. And let me say that; we don't need to agree to be believers in Christ.
In all the illistrations given by Jesus, the ones left are the ones killed.

Luk 17:26
"And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:
Luk 17:27
they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
Noah enters the ark (goes to be rescued) the remainders are killed by the flood.

Luk 17:28
"It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building;
Luk 17:29
but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30
"It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.
Again, it's the ones that are left that are killed.

Luk 17:31"On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back.
Luk 17:32"Remember Lot's wife.
Luk 17:33"Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.
Luk 17:34"I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left.
Luk 17:35"There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left.
Luk 17:36 ["Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left."]
Luk 17:37 And answering they *said to Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said to them, "Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered."
gaiagirl

5) Christ is dead, just like Moses, Buddah, Mohammed, Ghandi, and other noteworthy men. He is recorded as saying (although this may have been added by a later writer) he would return WHILE those first Christians were still alive. We know this did not happen. Another carrot-on-a-stick.
Where's the body?
The body is in the ground, and decomposed after 2000 years. The gospel accounts were not written for decades after the events they purport to describe, so there would have been no way to even go back and check the facts.
Assuming the gospels are correct just because they say so is "argument by authority", and doesn't hold up.
Even IF the tomb was found empty, it does not logically follow that this means the body was taken to heaven. If someone comes home to find their car missing from the garage.....Does this mean God took it to heaven? Of course not. It more likely means that someone carted off the body. Jesus is often said to have done things "so the prophecy would be fulfilled". So why is it difficult to conceive that some of his followers might act similarly?
When faced with several possible explanations for a phenomenon, the simplest solution is usually correct. It is never necessary to invoke miracles.
XJW4EVR

The body is in the ground, and decomposed after 2000 years.
Let's say, for the moment that you are correct and the body was interred somewhere, what would have been the natural reaction of the Jewish religious leaders to the Apostles' message of a risen Messiah?
The gospel accounts were not written for decades after the events they purport to describe, so there would have been no way to even go back and check the facts.
OK, so you are saying that no one would be alive "decades" after the fact to either confirm or deny the events written in the Gospels?
Assuming the gospels are correct just because they say so is "argument by authority", and doesn't hold up.
How so? If I take this to its most logical conclusion then eyewitness testimony in any trial is "argument by authority." You have a faulty understanding of what the argument to authority is. It is saying that something is true because of the knowledge, authority, expertise or position of the person asserting an argument. The testimony of the Gospels are the accounts of direct eyewitnesses of the resurrection (Matthew and John) or the recorded testimony of eyewitness to the resurrected Christ (Mark-Peter & Paul, Luke-Paul and others).
Jesus alwas said that His resurrection would be a confirmation of His claims. Throughout the Epistles, the resurrection is pointed to as evidence of His claims, and a foundation of the faith that came to be known as Christianity.
Even IF the tomb was found empty, it does not logically follow that this means the body was taken to heaven. If someone comes home to find their car missing from the garage.....Does this mean God took it to heaven? Of course not. It more likely means that someone carted off the body. Jesus is often said to have done things "so the prophecy would be fulfilled". So why is it difficult to conceive that some of his followers might act similarly?
Of course your nice bedtime story omits a very important parts of the internment of Jesus' body which would preclude this interpretation of the facts. First, the tomb was sealed with a Roman seal. To break that seal without the proper permission was to invoke the death penalty of crucifixion upside-down upon oneself. Second, the tomb was guarded by at least Roman soldiers. These soldiers were highly disciplined and would face tortuous and humiliating punishment if they fell asleep on duty. These are the same guards whom the Jewish religious leaders bribed and promised to handle their superiors in order to facilitate their cover-up of the resurrection. Third, you have the huge stone that was rolled in front of the tomb. How could anone move this stone without making enough noise to rouse the guards? Fourth, if the body was stolen, then how did the thieves have enough time to remove the body wrappings and carefully fold the face cloth? Fifth, based on their own testimony the followers were scared and in hiding.
However, all the evidence in the world won't convince you unless you first deal with your preconception that miracles can't happen. I accept the miracle of the resurrection because it fits the facts we have recorded in the Gospels. In the Gospels, the fallacious argument of the disciples stealing the body is dealt with and refuted. Sadly, too many attempt to resurrect (no pun intended) this argument not realizing that it no longer has any legs to stand on.
When faced with several possible explanations for a phenomenon, the simplest solution is usually correct. It is never necessary to invoke miracles.
I agree. However, when every naturalistic explanation, that I am aware of, has been thoroughly refuted, then one must conclude that the resurrection was a miraculous act.

Born Agains:- What do you beileve?

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