Quote from Edward Gibbons Re: Excommunication. Anyone know it's source?

by Awakened at Gilead 8 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Awakened at Gilead

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  w884/15p.30DisciplineThatCanYieldPeaceableFruit***

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  Excommunication—What

  Effect?

  English historian Edward Gibbon wrote about the propriety and effect of disfellowshipping nearer the time of the apostles:

  "It is the undoubted right of every society to exclude from its communion and benefits such among its members as reject or violate those regulations which have been established by general consent. . . . The consequences of excommunication were of a temporal [earthly] as well as a spiritual nature. The Christian against whom it was pronounced was deprived of any part in the oblations of the faithful. The ties both of religious and of private friendship were dissolved."

  The Society uses this quote to affirm that every society has the right to excommunicate. I would like to see the original quote, since the WTS has place the famous "..." in the middle of the quote. Has anyone done the research on this quote yet (to save me the time of investigating it myself and avoiding needless effort?) I am doing research for a personal project which I hope I can turn into a publishable book within a few months.

  Thanks!

  A@G
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  Awakened at Gilead

  Not to worry.. I found it, lol!

  http://books.google.com/books?id=aOwLAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA348&lpg=PA348&dq=Edward+Gibbon+excommunication&source=bl&ots=0bomHfC-d9&sig=l4qsuEA_LKRrojfJR6c4SgyYZVA&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result
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  blondie

  Google can be a powerful tool.
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  belbab

  No one has posted the quote here yet so I finally located it by typing in excommunication in the Google search in this book pocket. It is on page 348 of Chap XV. He continues on the subject up to pages 352. Here is page 348 filtered through notepad. (no paragraphs in original) The WT's omission is highlighted in red. What the WT did quote is highlighted in yellow. It is also interesting to note as highlighted in red at the bottom that he (the shunned) was shunned by the generality of mankind, So the wrongdoer was punished for wrongs that even the general society abhorred.

  PAGE 348 CHAP XV

  THE DECLINE AND FALL,
  II, It is the undoubted right of every society to exclude from its communion and benefits such among its members as reject or violate those regulations which have been established by general consent,In the exercise of this power, the censures of the Christian church were chiefly directed against scandalous sinners, and particularly those who were guilty of murder, of fraud, or of incontinence ; against the authors, or the followers, of any heretical opinions which had been condemned by the judgment of the episcopal order; and against those unhappy persons, who, whether from choice or from compulsion hadpolluted themselves after their baptism by any act of idolatrous worship. The consequences of excommunication were of a temporal, as well as a spiritual, nature. The Christian against whom it was pronounced was deprived of any part in the oblations of the faithful; The ties both of religious and ofprivate friendship were dissolved ; he found himself a profane object of abhorrence to the persons whom he had been the most esteemed, or by whom he had been the most tenderly beloved; and, as far as an expulsion from a respectable §ociety could imprint on his character a mark of disgrace, he was shunned or suspected by the generality of mankind. The situation of these unfortunate exiles was in itself very painful and melancholy ; but, as it usually happens, their apprehensions far exceeded their

  (end of page 348)

  belbab
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  mustang

  When I saw Gibbons, I guessed "Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire". Your mention of the early Christian times homes in on that. Since no one has declared or fully disclosed it by name, I shall.

  Hmmm... "The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"; slightly off; since I haven't opened its covers for 40 years, I'm going to plead not being current.

  I've recently been reading the court cases on the legal basis for how they defend Disfellowshipping; those are interesting. I understand the main [legal] doctrine (Ecclesiastical Abstention) that supports WTS, but I find a minor discrepancy in the supporting arguments, even so.

  Mustang
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  still_in74

  yes...

  but edward gibbons also wrote

  Fanaticism obliterates the feelings of humanity.

  Let us read with method, and propose to ourselves an end to which our studies may point. The use of reading is to aid us in thinking

  The end comes when we no longer talk with ourselves. It is the end of genuine thinking and the beginning of the final loneliness

  The various modes of worship which prevailed in the Roman world were all considered by the people as equally true; by the philosopher as equally false; and by the magistrate as equally useful(so if you reject your faith, which is true - and practice law of a different faith, which is also true, then from what are you rejected when all faiths in the eyes of the faithful are all true? - the WTS fails to quote eddie on this one)

  and my personal favourite

  Unprovided with original learning, unformed in the habits of thinking,unskilled in the arts of composition, I resolved to write a book.

  sounds like something Russel, Rutherford and Franz could have all said at some point in their lives........
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  isaacaustin

  lol this makes me think of the medical professional the WT used to quote from from the 1700's for support that a transfusion is eating blood.
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  mustang

  The real issue here is that Gibbon's is considered to be the relevant authority on the history of the Romans and the Roman Empire. I found that to be the case when I wrote a term paper on the Roman Empire. Forty years could have changed that, but at the time he was the giant in the field.

  WTS's typical mechanism of quoting out of context and/or selectively is evident; but we can't hold that against Gibbons

  Mustang
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  Awakened at Gilead

  What's interesting is the table of contents... The society quotes Gibbons as if he was talking about society in general (based on the index heading), but what's interesting is the subheading Excommunication can be found right below the headings for the separation of laity and clergy as well as "the ambition of the Roman Pontiff"... Full list below:

  Ambition of the Roman pontiff, - 338
  Laity and clergy, - — - 340
  Oblations and revenue of the church, — 341
  Distribution of the revenue, - - 345
  Excommunication, - — - 348
  Public penance, - - - 350
  The dignity of episcopal government, - 351

  I guess they don't believe in the points above and below, so to quote him as support for their beliefs is seriously out of context... AS USUAL!

  A@G