Actually the verse is in the NWT, I looked it up this morning. But as I said in my earlier post it is set apart from the rest of the chapter. I remember reading years ago that the manuscripts did not all agree, so they put it in, but set it apart so that it would stand out. As I recall, that particular passage also talks about being bitten by poisonous snakes and living, which snake handling religions use to back up their practices.
TW
Judicial Committee Meetings
by Pathofthorns 45 Replies latest jw friends
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thinker
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Xandit
To larc,
With reference to the story in John 8, The New Jerusalem Bible probably states it most succinctly when referring to this whole account, as follows:
"The author of this passage is not John; the oldest MSS do not include it or place it elsewhere. The style is that of the Synoptics."
You can find similar statements in other translations and discussions of the matter in the better commentaries. While almost all translatations (including the NWT) do have the actual text available, most of them, depending on the version, will make similar comments. There is no question that this story was not in the oldest manuscripts and hence has to be considered bogus. Even if you like the way it sounds.
Edited by - Xandit on 28 December 2000 0:33:3
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Xandit
To waiting,
No, I don't believe anyone has ever described me as negative, at least not until now and I think 'totaly negative' is a stretch. I have no particular intent to build up or tear down, just comment when I feel like commenting.
If you find my comments disagreeable then please don't strain yourself to come up with a reply.
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larc
Xandit,
You have given this serious thought and I will have to do the same. I can only assume that you are right. I wonder why all these versions include it? I wish I had access to the scholars to ask them.
I have a joke on this subject; hope you don't mind. As you probably know, Catholics believe that Mary as well as Jesus was perfect, so you have to go with that premise for the joke to work. After making the statement we are talking about Jesus looked up and saw a rock flying over his head. He turned around and said, "Mother, I told you to stay home."
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Xandit
larc that is funny. The study of Mariolatry is fascinating and bewildering to me.
BTW, I wasn't trying to be nasty. It's just that it has always struck me as odd that so many people quote that semi-scripture. I guess they find it comforting, or maybe it just makes a good excuse. In reading the various commentaries most of them seem to say that it's left in because people like the sound of it, and it seems somewhat to coincide with the change Jesus made away from the rigidities of the Law. I believe almost all of them will say that textually there is no reason for it being there.
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larc
It is a comforting quote.
I'd like to share an experience regarding another comforting quote. I knew a very religious ederly woman who's adult son was gay. His life style was totaly at odds with her beliefs, but she was very loving to him. I asked a relative about this seeming paradox, and they replyed, "Hate the sin, but love the sinner." I found out later that St. Augustine had said this. Oh, how I wish the JW's would take this attitude.
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larc
BTW, the reason I missed the reference you mentioned: I have a New Testament Bible that shows eight translations, the ones I mentioned and the King James, where the eight versions are shown side by side, which is handy for comparisons but it doesn't include the technical notes.
Well, it's getting late and I have a final quote. As one shepard said to the other, "Let's let the flock out of here".
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berylblue
Many times though, it is the luck of the draw depending on the makeup of your local elder body
I actually bitched about who was on my committee, and then the elder to whom I had "turned myself in" and was bitching at told me to pick whomever I wanted. He ran down the list, I wish I could remember what I said about each of them, I do remember answering to "How about Brother C.?" "He's neurotic". "Well, then, how about Brother G." "He's an idiot." The elder with whom I was speaking actually laughed at all my responses. The fact is, there really wasn't anything anyone could do. Didn't matter who was on the committe. I was smoking. Guilty. End of story. I was out, and we all knew it. The JC was merely a formality.
I must admit the elder who announced to me their decision to DF me fought back tears when he told me.However, the situation would never have come to that had the elders not ignored my constant cries for help.
I guess all's well that ends well. I now know and understand that I must help myself.
And it's better to be out of the WTS, if what I've found out on the internet is any indication of the true state of affairs. And I believe it is.
Beryl
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rocketman
When I was an elder, I sat on several committees, some that dealt with sexual matters. One time, on a committee I did not serve on, one elder was so out-of-line that he was removed from the committee, and then 'reinstated' to it by the Society. This elder caused much hardship and stress to the young woman who was being questioned and her family.
Also, while Frenchy's post was very informative, isn't it a shame that the best place to find out your rights in such situations is at a Internet message board. You won't see the elders or the Society publicly state such. If anything, they are in KS91 book, but that's for elder's eyes only.
Waiting, what you went through was obviously very wrong and traumatic. I am very sorry that you had to endure that nonsense.
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JT
Frenchy is correct in that one does have "rights' and as has been pointed out the the avg jw does not know out and alot of times it revolves around that fact that many elders even by WT OWN STANDARDS ARE NOT QUALIFIED - EVEN BY THEIR RULES, but since they have spent so much INK in building up this enity known as ELDERS they can't do anything to tear it down
confidental issues are a major needle in the side for wt - but due to the poor quality of men selected by them as elders - this is what you get, men who have no problem telling other elders about cases or their wives and the legal damage is real---
but once again due to building up this enitity called elders they can't do much without undermining the local jw confidence- HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF AN ELDER DELETED FOR RUNNING HIS MOUTH OR MISHANDLING A JUDICAL CASE, NO!!!!!!!!!!!
YET how many have lost thier title due to low hours by the kids or wife- smile--
in most appeal cases it will not be over turned for this very reason WE CAN'T MAKE THE ELDERS LOOK DUMB- most appeal committees are friends of the other body of elders and if you appeal to brooklyn you will get my oldroomate or one of his buddies on the service desk
as he told me most sexual and apostasy cases are never OVER RULED, because they are simple
1-- do you believe the FDS speak for god, YES OR NO
2. SISTER did you give the man some "Coochie" yes or no
3. Bro did you take the woman "Coochie" yes or no
they are pretty cut and dry - only issue is DO THE ELDERS PERCIEVE REPENTANCE- AND that is up to the boys on the body- smile
but he did say most case that he has seen that were overturned involved MONEY AND CONTRACTS STUFF
where the local elders were not well educated ( don't you love it) in all the details of contract law-
bottom line is the Elders can't be made to look bad, if one is depending on an appeal to be turned over then you are going to be for the most part Sh!t out of Luck-
most judical cases related to sex are always difficult for females as has been noted, in fact my first case highlights that very fact-
i called this thread ------PANTIES OR THONGS
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http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/4114/1.ashx
I thought the name of this thread was so on time for this thread demostrates one of the sad things about claiming to speak for god, when one actually does not.
when i was a newly appointed elder at the tender age of 27
i was introduced to the world of the JUDICAL COMMITTEE.
It was in fact my first case. i had gotten a call from the PO before the meeting stating that their would be an elders meetings to discuss some judical matters. i sat thru the meeting thinking and wondering
what type of case would it be and would i be selected to serve on it since i was a new elder or would i be told next you can serve.
right after the prayer we quickly entered the 2nd school. and there we sat, the po annouced that he had been approached by a single sister who stated she had sexual relationship with a man on her job and this would require the formation of a judical committe.
i recall so well that one bro almost jumped out of his seat to volunteer stating that since she was in his bookstudy he felt that he would be in a good position to serve.
the po stated he would be out of town so he could not do it this weekend and it needed to be handle quickly cause it was publicly known on her job
- the guy got the sister stuff and-went bragging about bagging a JW-
so another bro was recommended and then the po said let James serve it will be good exp. we got 2 exp elders already.
so the time was arranged for sat at 2pm at the hall to meet with her but we would meet at 1:30pm to review the flockbook
well i was up late friday night reviewing the flockbook on how i could be a loving shepard for this dear sister who had been swallowed up by this worldly man - a tool of satan_
then the time came she walked into the room and i had known her for a number of years and my wife and her were good friends so the embarrassment on her face was so telling
after a prayer the chairman explained a few ground rules no tape recorders , etc
then she was asked to tell us what happened
when she finished --the woman was shaking and eyes just full of water
then the questioning began
at first the question were basic one that i thought sounded reasonable, but in just a few min i realized why the bookstudy conductor wanted to serve on her case
i found out later that he was interested in her yrs ago, but she wasn't
he married and his wife was one of those big black sisters who was good in field service , but not much to really look at
while this sister kinda put in mind of a Venessa Williams type to put in plainly she was a nice looking sister i won't lie
but the questions took a wild left hand turn, he started and the other bro would followup it was like machine gun questions
Who was on top
Did he Climax
was there oral or any analand on an on it went
and yes the famous question:"Were you wearing Panites or Thongs?"
i could see that she was starting to lose it and she just brokedown into tears- so she was excused to go to the bathroom
while she was out it was explained to me as a new elder that such questions were NEEDED to see if she was consistent in her story and the details- to see if she was truly repentant or was it a practice
he explained to me that a "Practice" could be considered if the person had sexually intercourse more than once during the night while in the bed with the person- that it was not needed for it to be separate days, but more than once in the same night and it "could be" considered that the person had made it into a "Pratice"
the TECHNICAL DETAILS that wt gives it's elders are unreal
such as the difference between
1. MOMENTARYLY TOUCHING A SISTER'S BREAST
2. CARRESSING IT-
oUR WT elders school spent about 25 min in our class explaining the difference between the two and each has it's own
punishmenti was told that the Panty-Thong question would reveal
"INTENT" "Scheming" "planning" etc on the part of the sister
you see as it was explained to me if she was wearing Bloomers or reg panties then if a claim was made that we got carried away in the heat of the moment then it would be possible
but if she was wearing "Thongs" then she went to his house with the intent of Giving him Some
now this is how i was beening groomed and instructed, being a new elder who had never served on any case i didn't know
these guys were exp elders with yrs of judical cases under thier belt-
beside these were all Former bethelites like myself so of course the boys from THE HOUSE knew how the judicial meeting was to be handlewell she came back into the room and sat down and the questions started again in a few min and at this point she refused to answer anymore questions LIKE THAT and she told us she would not answer THOSE TYPES OF QUESTIONs
"Girl Friend" picked up her bag and walked out
in 5 min we decided that she was "UNREPENTANT" AND DFED HER
I SWEAR TO GOD i only wish i could find her and tell her how sorry i was for allowing her to literally be ganged raped by those guys
this system of the WT of having men called Elders with no training FREELY be able to ask any Damn quesiton they want to and the persons is obligated to answer or else be viewed as not working with Jehovah's Organization is a Damn Joke
I often wonder whatever became of that sister- she attended only about 2or 3 meetings after the annoucement and disappared into thin air
If you are reading this post and you know who you are
for i'm in the Washington DC area of the country
I beg you to please accept my apology for supporting such a cruel and evil system
James