Who was the biggest Jehovah's Witness rebel? (page 6)

tiffy0212

my son. when they come to his door his runs out and tells them what a terrible childhood he had, they are so stupid they just keep coming back. I believe he must have told them that his father is a witless.

slimboyfat

However, I do take your point about the effect of 1975. But it also started a chain of events that started with people like Ray Franz, Watters, JWD/JWN, that will prevent such an occurrence from happening again.

Again if 1975 had not happened then perhaps there would have been no apostate "purges" in the late 1970s and early 1980s and some of the reforms suggested by Ray Franz, Dunlap and other moderates may have been officially adopted, with the help of liberal fence-sitters such as Swingle and Sydlik. As it was the fallout from 1975 meant a retrenchment and hardliners such as Fred Franz, Schroeder and Jaracz gained the upper hand, while the chronology, disfellowshipping and the hierarchical structure were all reasserted.

Whether a liberal path advocated by Ray Franz in the 1970s would have meant a healthier organization in the long run with bigger increases now is very much debatable. I reckon much that is unique about Jehovah's Witnesses would have been lost if they had chosen that path at that stage. Certainly on an individual level a less drachonican organization would have been a benefit, but in terms of growth I don't think it would have done them much good.

So again I think 1975 saved the day for the Watchtower organization because not only did it produce a net increase in followers surrounding the expectation Armageddon would take place then, but it was also instrumental in the organizational decision not to liberalise the organization at a juncture when many in the leadership were pressing for such a move. If the organization had gone liberal it would be weaker today and probably smaller too.

slimboyfat

I agree setting a date would be much harder these days, but not impossible. I don't see the current leadership doing it. Maybe down the line if something unexpected happens (like a World War or major societal turmoil) and someone else is at the helm.

The way things are going however they just seem to be winding down and becoming more liberal and mainstream. It would take something rather dramatic either from within the organization or in society in general to prompt a reversal of this trend.

By the way how do you quote on this new board?

AllTimeJeff

Highlight the text you want to quote, then drop down the "STYLES" box. The "" box doesn't do the trick.

AllTimeJeff

Thats an interesting "what if" scenario you have provided, Slim. It certainly saved the day for the hard liners. And the increase was substantial in the run up. I haven't thought about the increases in the 80's and early 90's being associated with that.

quietlyleaving

alltimejeff

I don't think Freddie is a popular choice so I'm withdrawing him and vote for Ray Franz instead
No need to withdraw. He did have a rebellious streak in him. Of course, Freddie is as popular as the ebola virus to ex JW's, and probably hastened their demise with his ridiculous promotion of 1975. To that I say, "Cheers!"

alright.

I'm not seeing Freddie Franz as such a hardliner but as someone overcome by other hardliners on the governing body. Jaracz for example.

Remember, Fred would have been 82 when his 1975 prophecy failed. Devastated and old I don't see that he'd have had much fight left in him. I'm agreeing with those who feel that the governing body members were just as much a victim of themselves as we were.

Here is an interestiong quote from wiki

In his study of the religion, James Penton has noted that members of the Governing Body are old men (some aged in their 80s and 90s) who have had little experience outside the Witness community in years, that few have much formal education or business experience and that they have insulated themselves from intellectual stimuli for so long "they often have rather naive and jaundiced views of the rest of the world". [ 57 ] Penton has noted an increasing level of conservatism and sturdy resistance to change to Watch Tower policies and doctrines since Raymond Franz's expulsion in 1980, with an increasing tendency to isolate dissidents within the organisation by means of disfellowshipping. [ 58 ]

Also Freddie seemed to be preparing Ray for leadership. If they had followed a more liberal path it may have meant that Ray would have taken the helm and then it is highly likely that we would still have seen the growth but along more liberal lines.

recovering

Ray Franz by far. I had my doubts for quite a while, and had left the organazation for many years before I read his book. He enlightened me to what was really going on. Before me reading his book, I had thought it was a localized phenomina (congragation level) not a systemic hypocracy.

tenyearsafter

I would agree that Carl Olaf Jonsson, James Penton and Randy Watters should be on the list...I think what sets Ray Franz apart from the rest is the position of "inside" knowledge and responsibility he held and his courage to take a stand against it. The rest of the gentleman were very courageous (read that as "rebellious" in JW-speak) and have made their mark as WT rebels.

SPAZnik

Based on numbers helped, years of untold effort, and virtually thankless work, I think SIMON ET AL deserve honourable mention too. At least in my books.

Who was the biggest Jehovah's Witness rebel?

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