Should you believe in the Trinity book says...

middleman

Just put together a little document comparing the Watchtower's misquotes from page 7 of their Trinity book. I have been reading much of the Ante Nicene fathers lately and the more I read them it amazes me that the society would even mention them to refute the Trinity. By reading the writings from these early church fathers we can truly see that they belived the core doctines that mainstream Christians follow today (for the most part). So much for the accusation of the "apostacy" of Christianity due the formulation of the RCC in the 4th century. Enjoy...

StAnn

If I may....it's a little confusing at first, the format I mean. I thought "The Trinity Book Says..." followed by A and B meant that the Trinity book said both A and B. I had to reread it to understand what you meant.

May I please recommend that you change it a little bit to say, "The Trinity Book Says the following: and then put in the same bold type, "However, Justin Martyr actually said.....fill in the blank." It might be a bit easier to read.

Especially for people who aren't familiar with the whole concept of Ante-Nicene Fathers.

I remember asking an elder if there were any writings from the early christians, extra-biblical, remaining. He said no, because they were underground they didn't dare leave any writings. I'd bet most JWs don't know these writings even exist.

StAnn

passwordprotected

Yes, I like this, but as StAnn says it could perhaps be a wee bit clearer. Bookmarked and emailed.

TheOldHippie

This is not specific enough; you must add to the Trinity brochure quotes wherefrom the brochure says it is quoted, otherwise you might easily quote from a different place in the Fathers' writings that from where the Trinity brochure says the quote is from. I know this has been a topic earlier, and much better done.

middleman

"This is not specific enough; you must add to the Trinity brochure quotes wherefrom the brochure says it is quoted,"

Thanks for yall's input. Part of the reason I made this is because the society didn't have the references of the "fathers" to their quotes anywhere. The references I have of the "fathers" were written in the section B. I do appreciate your honest critique and support. Any more specific ideas on how to format this better would be much appreciated. You say there is a much better topic on this?.....would you kindly send the link?

Blessings...

wobble

Dear Middleman,

I too read these writings a while ago and came to the same conclusion,the Anti-nicene fathers seem to be trying honestly to make sense of their faith,not trying to add to scripture.

With the WT brochure on the Trinity I found an even more blatant mis-quote,which may be highlighted when you find that other thread,but they quote a modern scholar in part, as disproving the trinity,but if you read the quote in full it shows he supports the deity of Christ,not casts doubt on it.

I don't have access at present to either the Brochure or the original quote,but if you don't come accross it PM me and I will try to locate it.

Thanks for your good work so far.

Love

Wobble

Perry

Excellent material. All the early fathers had to do was read the bible, which they did. I have highlighted some of the more dramatic differences between the Textus Receptus and the corrupted Alexandrian texts . As you can clearly see, Fred Franz went even farther than the spirtists Wescott and Hort.

SCRIPTURE	KJV	NASB	NIV	NWT
1 Cor. 15:47	The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.	the first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.	The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.	the first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven
Zech 12: 9,10 (Jehovah is speaking)	and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son	so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son	They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child	and they will certainly look to the One whom they pierced through, and they will certainly wail over Him as in the wailing over an only [son];
Micah 5: 2 (Jesus is from everlasting...before time)	Bethlehem...out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting	Bethlehem...From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity	Bethlehem...out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times	Beth´le hem ... from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.
Daniel 3:25 (The Son of God made occasional appearance in the OT)	the Son of God	a son of the gods	a son of the gods	a son of the gods
I Timothy 3:16	God was manifest in the flesh	He who was revealed in the flesh	He appeared in a body	He was made manifest in the flesh
Acts 3:13, 26	his Son Jesus	His Servant Jesus	His Servant Jesus	His Servant Jesus
Philippians 2:6 (Jesus did not think that he was robbing God by being his equal)	thought it not robbery to be equal with God	did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped	did not consider equality with God something to be grasped	gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God
Acts 8:37	that Jesus Christ is the Son of God	omitted (marginal note)	omitted (footnote)	omitted
John 6:69	thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God	You are the Holy One of God	You are the Holy One of God	You are the Holy One of God
John 9:35	Son of God	Son of Man	Son of Man	Son of Man
Matthew 20:20	worshipping him	bowing down	kneeling down	doing obeisance
Matthew 19:17	And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God	"Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good	"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good.	"Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is that is good.
Hosea 13: 4 (was isn't the same as is)	Yet I am the LORD thy God... for there is no saviour beside me	Yet I {have been} the LORD your God... For there is no savior besides Me.	"But I am the Lord your God... You shall acknowledge ... no Savior except me.	"But I am Jehovah your God ...and there was no savior but I.
John 4:42 (Both Jehovah and Christ are the only saviour" - See above)	this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world	this One indeed is the Savior of the world	this man really is the savior of the world	this man is for a certainty the savior of the world
Romans 1:3	Jesus Christ our Lord	omitted	omitted	Lord Jesus Christ
Ephesians 3:14	of our Lord JesusChrist	omitted	omitted	omitted
I Thess. 2:19	our Lord JesusChrist	our Lord Jesus	our Lord Jesus	our Lord Jesus
I Thess. 3:11	our Lord JesusChrist	Jesus our Lord	our Lord Jesus	our Lord Jesus
II Thess. 1:8	our Lord JesusChrist	our Lord Jesus	our Lord Jesus	our Lord Jesus
Ephesians 3:14	of our Lord Jesus Christ	omitted	omitted	omitted
Luke 24:52	they worshipped him	after worshiping Him	they worshiped him	they did obeisance to him
Hebrews1: 5,6 (worshipping anything other than God is idolatry)	Thou art my Son... And let all the angels of God worship him.	YOU ARE MY SON... "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."	"You are my Son...Let all God's angels worship him."	You are my son; ..."And let all God's angels do obeisance to him."
Hebrews 1:8 (See Ps. 45:6)	But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever	But of the Son He says, YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER	But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever	But with reference to the Son: "God is your throne forever (original passage in Psalms was perverted to support this one)
John 14:28	my Father	the Father	the Father	the Father
Philippians 4:13	through Christ	through Him	through Him	by virtue of him
Acts 7:59,60	Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit he...cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge.	he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus receive my spirit"! he... cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!"	Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit" he cried out, ..."Lord, do not hold this sin against them	he made appeal and said: "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit"... he cried out with a strong voice: "Jehovah, do not charge this sin against them."
Acts 20: 28 The Christian God bleeds	feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.	shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood	Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood	shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son]
Titus 2:13 (God himself is our savior)	Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us	looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us footnote disclaimer	while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us	while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus, who gave himself for us

SCRIPTURE	KJV	NIV	NWT
Revelation 1: 7,8 (reference to Matt. 24:30 & Mark 13:26) (Jesus returns with the clouds, he is the Almighty)	Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, ...I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, ... saith the Lord, ... the Almighty.	Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, ... I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God... the Almighty	Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, ..."I am the Al´pha and the O me´ga," says Jehovah God, the Almighty."
Revelation 1: 10-17 The Son of Man is the First and the Last, he is also the Alpha and Omega,	I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book,... And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw ... one like unto the Son of man, ... And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last	On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, which said: "Write on a scroll what you see... and I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw ...someone "like a son of man," ... When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last	By inspiration I came to be in the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a strong voice like that of a trumpet, saying: "What you see write in a scroll... And I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me, and, having turned, I saw... someone like a son of man,... And when I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand upon me and said: "Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last
Rev. 22;12-16	And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last... I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches	"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End... "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches	"'Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Al´pha and the O me´ga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end... "'I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to YOU people of these things for the congregations

AllTimeJeff

After leaving the borg, I was very surprised to learn the Governing Body's efforts to take down the trinity by the use of their selected, out of context quotations from early church fathers.

In addition, many Christians do not believe the trinity the way JW's say they do. I can't tell you how many times I went to a door and told a householder that they worshipped the trinity in a certain way. JW's present only one way that the trinity is presented, but there are many other versions of the trinity in mainstream Christianity.

Again though, this demonstrates a GB ploy: They take control of the issue, and raise all the questions, or at the least the questions that they want to answer. Outside information and questions are not welcome. There are only certain questions on any subject that serves their agenda, and they limit it to that.

They set up the trinity debate as a straw man. They trot out their one version of the trinity, get people to think this is what they have been taught (often this isn't true) and then tear it down. Very disingenuous.

leavingwt

They set up the trinity debate as a straw man.

Precisely, Jeff.

Have you encountered ex-JWs that speak against the Trinity, using the WT arguments? I have. It is very difficult to discuss how the WT is distorting the Trinity doctrine without coming across as a promoter of the Trinity. It makes my head hurt.

Meeting Junkie No More

Middleman, THANK YOU for this 'little document'. It is exactly what I have been looking for.

The only trouble is, when I go to print, everything prints out except your document....wish I knew what to do to have it print out along with everything else. Any ideas?

Should you believe in the Trinity book says...

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