Daniel 4 - 7 times linked or otherwise to Luke 21:24

by besty 12 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  besty

  "26 Evidently, Nebuchadnezzar’s “seven times” involved seven years. In prophecy, a year averages 360 days, or 12 months of 30 days each. (Compare Revelation 12:6, 14.) So the king’s “seven times,” or seven years, were 360 days multiplied by 7, or 2,520 days. But what about the major fulfillment of his dream? The prophetic “seven times” lasted much longer than 2,520 days. This was indicated by Jesus’ words: “Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:24) That ‘trampling’ began in 607 B.C.E. when Jerusalem was destroyed and the typical kingdom of God ceased to function in Judah. When would the trampling end? At “the times of restoration of all things,” when divine sovereignty would again be manifested toward the earth through symbolic Jerusalem, the Kingdom of God.—Acts 3:21."

  I believe the above to be current truth according to the Daniel book - any takers for a quick deconstruction of this link, logical fallacies etc etc?
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  Goshawk

  Where does the lesser / greater fulfillment of prophecy doctrine come from?
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  Leolaia

  1) The dream vision in Daniel 4 is interpreted by the author as referring to Nebuchadnezzar, and no one else than Nebuchadnezzar. It refers to the period of time when, according to the author, Nebuchadnezzar was humbled and degraded by God. There is nothing in the text about Jerusalem, Gentile Times, or a period of 2,520 years. All of that is read into the text.

  2) Indeed, it is absurd anyway to make the period of humiliation of Nebuchadnezzar figurative of a longer period of "Gentile Times". In the Watchtower interpretation, the Gentile Times refer to a period when God's kingdom on earth, realized in the Jewish kingdom, was inactive when Gentiles had the supremacy over Jewish sovereignty and who reigned until "God's kingdom" was reestablished in 1914. This makes the incapacitation of Nebuchadnezzar, a Gentile, symbolic of the incapacitation of the non-Gentile Jewish kingdom; the very figure who brought the kingdom to an end was none other than Nebuchanezzar, yet he is made to symbolize not Gentile sovereignty but the Jewish kingdom that he himself brought to an end! There is also the little historical fact that Jewish soveriegnty was indeed reestablished in Judea for a whole century between 140-37 BC.

  3) Luke 21:24 does not allude to Daniel 4; it instead refers to ch. 7 and 9. The "trampling" metaphor is drawn from Daniel 7:7, 19 where it pertains to the "fourth kingdom", which in the first century AD was widely interpreted as Rome (as seen in, for instance, Josephus, Revelation, 4 Ezra 12, etc.). The times given to the nations to trample Jerusalem, on the other hand, is an allusion to Daniel 9:25-27, with the greater part of the 70 weeks of years being "times of trouble" when Jerusalem is rebuilt and then subjected to the desolations and war decreed to it. The author of Luke draws on the contemporary Jewish interpretation of the 70 weeks of years, seeing them end with Rome's destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 (as can be found in Josephus, the Seder Olam, and other works). Thus, the "abomination of desolation" of Daniel 9:27, 11:31, directly referenced in the underlying Markan source text, is interpreted by the author of Luke as referring to "Jerusalem encircled by encamped armies" (v. 20), i.e. the situation in AD 70. The reference to the "times of the nations" is also a Lukan redaction (compare with the text in Mark and Matthew, where the reference to the "times of the nations" is absent), and is closely related to v. 20 which relates to the time when "Jerusalem's desolation has drawn near". The presumed "times of the nations" hence are analoguous with the "troublous times" when Jerusalem was ruled by the Persians, Greeks, and Romans, in turn, until AD 70. BTW, the Christian interpretation that sees the end of the 70 weeks as reckoned from the crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth is a rather late one in the history of the interpretation of this chapter, not appearing until the end of the second century AD (other interpretations had the period ending at the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, or of the later Hasmoneans, or of the still-later Herod the Great).
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  still_in74

  I dont really see how "This was indicated by Jesus’ words: “Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:24" makes any sense.
  If the ATotN were 2520 DAYS those words would apply no differently than if it were 2520 years.

  This is a typical WTS sentence - they imply that a scripture 'clearly' means something and the JW readers nod their heads in agreement and brag about how the WT is full of scriptures to look up in your own bible.
  When in reality it is a blank-bullet. In this case there is no support given to their argument by Luke 21:24.

  Now that we're past that we can get to the best part of Russels prophecy.

  In prophecy, a year averages 360 days, or 12 months of 30 days each. (Compare Revelation 12:6, 14.) So the king’s “seven times,” or seven years, were 360 days multiplied by 7, or 2,520 days

  Ah yes, the famous 360 day year. So if prophetic years are 360 days, then why is it Russel counts 2520 Gregorian Calendar (365 day) years from 607 BCE to arrive at 1914?

  So lets look at this - 1914,the cornerstone date of the WTS is built from a start date that is FACTUALLY INACCURATE, and it is calculated using a fomula that turns "7 Times" into 7 years, then expands those 7 years into 7 - 360 day years.THEN takes those "2520 day years" and converts them into 2520 (365 day) gregorian calendar years. !!!!!!!!!And ah yes, the other foundation stone of the WTS - the 144,000 - this number is calculated from adding the FIGURATIVE NUMBER12,000 for each of the 12 tribes of Israel to sum up the LITERAL NUMBER 144,000.
  So here we have "figurative numbers" arbitrarily converted to "literal" numbers.

  Do I see a pattern here????????????????
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  still_in74

  This makes the incapacitation of Nebuchadnezzar, a Gentile, symbolic of the incapacitation of the non-Gentile Jewish kingdom; the very figure who brought the kingdom to an end was none other than Nebuchanezzar, yet he is made to symbolize not Gentile sovereignty but the Jewish kingdom that he himself brought to an end!

  interesting point.... I never looked at it from that perspective

  w8411/1p.31QuestionsFromReaders - The Aid book adds about the book of Second Maccabees: "Though placed after First Maccabees, this account relates to part of the same time period (about 180 B.C.E. to 160 B.C.E.) and was written by a different author than First Maccabees. The writer presents the book as a summary of the previous works of a certain Jason of Cyrene. It describes the persecutions of the Jews under Antiochus Epiphanes, the plundering of the temple, and its subsequent rededication."

  w8411/1p.31QuestionsFromReaders - The Aid book adds about the book of Second Maccabees: "Though placed after First Maccabees, this account relates to part of the same time period (about 180 B.C.E. to 160 B.C.E.) and was written by a different author than First Maccabees. The writer presents the book as a summary of the previous works of a certain Jason of Cyrene. It describes the persecutions of the Jews under Antiochus Epiphanes, the plundering of the temple, and its subsequent rededication."

  w8411/1p.31QuestionsFromReaders - The Aid book adds about the book of Second Maccabees: "Though placed after First Maccabees, this account relates to part of the same time period (about 180 B.C.E. to 160 B.C.E.) and was written by a different author than First Maccabees. The writer presents the book as a summary of the previous works of a certain Jason of Cyrene. It describes the persecutions of the Jews under Antiochus Epiphanes, the plundering of the temple, and its subsequent rededication."

  w9811/15p.23WhoWeretheMaccabees? - Faced with internal rivalries and Rome’s rising power, rulers of the Seleucid Empire were less concerned with enforcing anti-Jewish decrees. This opened the way for Judah to press his attack to the very gates of Jerusalem. In December 165 B.C.E. (or perhaps 164 B.C.E.), he and his troops captured the temple, cleansed its utensils, and rededicated it—three years to the day after its desecration. The Jews commemorate this event annually during Hanukkah, the festival of dedication.

  w9811/15p.23WhoWeretheMaccabees? - Faced with internal rivalries and Rome’s rising power, rulers of the Seleucid Empire were less concerned with enforcing anti-Jewish decrees. This opened the way for Judah to press his attack to the very gates of Jerusalem. In December 165 B.C.E. (or perhaps 164 B.C.E.), he and his troops captured the temple, cleansed its utensils, and rededicated it—three years to the day after its desecration. The Jews commemorate this event annually during Hanukkah, the festival of dedication.

  w9811/15p.23WhoWeretheMaccabees? - Faced with internal rivalries and Rome’s rising power, rulers of the Seleucid Empire were less concerned with enforcing anti-Jewish decrees. This opened the way for Judah to press his attack to the very gates of Jerusalem. In December 165 B.C.E. (or perhaps 164 B.C.E.), he and his troops captured the temple, cleansed its utensils, and rededicated it—three years to the day after its desecration. The Jews commemorate this event annually during Hanukkah, the festival of dedication.

  Good point Leolaia, although I am sure the WTS will point to the lack of a King appointed by Jehovah as a way around this......
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  JosephMalik

  Besty,

  Evidently, means that this is a guess and a bad one at that. It applied to Nebuchanezzar for the purpose of establishing Daniel’s credentials as a true prophet. There is no need to make more out of it than what it obviously is. This numbers game used by them has already been proven to be a failure, the work of false teachers.

  What about Luke 21:24? 24? And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Why do we not find it in the other Gospels? Well we do but no one seems to notice. The authors in question wrote for their audiences and while they did not always quote our Lord’s words exactly they managed to convey the same information to their readers. How? Like this: Matt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. Same thing but written to Jews who knew where they lived, this makes no difference. Same time in history, same end of days. Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. Again the same thing, a bit more general since it was written to the mixed company of believers of his day. Same time in history, same end of days.

  Matthew and Mark covered history from the beginning of the world to this time. Luke simply called all this the times of the Gentiles that would be fulfilled at this end. All three authors conveyed the same information to their readers in terms understandable to them. Simple. Daniel also prophesied about this time. That is the only connection to consider. But if we do we learn: Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And with this and the text that follows we get a bit more detail not covered in the Gospels. But it is the same thing, the same time in history, the same end of days.

  Joseph
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  shamus100

  bla bla bla bla bla bla bla.... I believe the bible is complete b.s. anyways.

  But the botchtower forgot about leap years, now didn't they?

  Oops! Put that into the bible-math-numbers game. Figure out when armageddon is going to strike from some ancient gibberish.
• 

  besty

  #

  thanks for all your answers -
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  Leolaia

  I just did a search in the 2007 WT Library and there was only one hit on the word "Hasmonean" and none for "Hasmoneans"; the single hit was from an article from a 1953 Watchtower and only discussed the Hasmoneans with respect to the Sadducees that followed them. I suspect that no one on the GB even realizes that there was an independent Jewish kingdom in Palestine, based at Jerusalem and the Second Temple, during the period of supposed "Gentile" rule. I certainly didn't know anything about this when I was a JW.
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  Leolaia

  OTOH since the Hasmoneans were Levites and not from the Davidic line, the Society would simply say that Davidic kingship was still unrealized. That is true. But there is still the problem that the century of Hasmonean rule, while Hellenizing, did not consist of Gentile domination over the "house of David". If anything, it was an interregnum of Jewish times -- when fellow Jews kept the "house of David" from power.