Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 03-01-09 WT Study (THOROUGH WITNESS)

by blondie 11 Replies latest jw friends

blondie

Comments You Will Not Hear at the 03-01-09 WT Study (December 15, 2008, pages 16-20)(THOROUGH WITNESS)Review comments will be in red
WT material from today's WT will be in black
Quotes from other sources will be in quotes boxes
w = Watchtower
g = Awake
jv = Proclaimers book

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DETERMINED TO BEAR THOROUGH WITNESS
"He ordered us to preach to the people and to give a thorough witness."--ACTS 10:42

OPENING COMMENTS

Why does the WTS reference only one outside source and why that one?

Did you give a "thorough" witness when you were in? Did others? In my experience, people had not read the placement literature, had no clue what introduction they would use, and kept very bad records of people they even did find home and talk to. If these jws had to depend on their results to make a living, they would have been homeless. But then their own everlasting life did not depend on the results, only the hours they put on their slip each month.

START OF ARTICLE

Comments 1: What is the WTS convoluted use of "god-fearing"?

*** w98 9/15 p. 30 A Bible Translation That Changed the World ***
However, these impressive points do not tell the whole story. Author Shaye J. D. Cohen, professor of Jewish history, states: “Many gentiles, both men and women, converted to Judaism during the last centuries B.C.E. and the first two centuries C.E. Even more numerous, however, were those gentiles who accepted certain aspects of Judaism but did not convert to it.” Both Klausner and Cohen refer to these nonconverts as God-fearers, an expression that appears frequently in Greek literature of the period.

What is the difference between a proselyte and a God-fearer? Proselytes were full converts, considered Jews in every sense because they accepted the God of Israel (rejecting all other gods), underwent circumcision, and joined themselves to the nation of Israel. In contrast, Cohen says regarding God-fearers: “Although these gentiles observed any number of Jewish practices and venerated in one form or another the God of the Jews, they did not see themselves as Jews and were not seen by others as Jews.” Klausner describes them as “standing in a middle position,” for they accepted Judaism and “observed a part of its customs, but . . . did not become complete Jews.”

Were they told to give a witness about Jesus or Jehovah? Where in the NT does it say Christians are to bear witness to Jehovah?
Quote
(Revelation 12:17) And the dragon grew wrathful at the woman, and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus.

(Acts 1:

(Revelation 1:9) I, John, YOUR brother and a sharer with YOU in the tribulation and kingdom and endurance in company with Jesus, came to be in the isle that is called Patmos for speaking about God and bearing witness to Jesus.. . .
Cornelius received the holy spirit before he was baptized? Doesn't the WTS teach that people don't receive holy spirit until after baptism?
Quote
*** it-1 p. 250 Baptism ***
” Peter answered: “Repent, and let each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the free gift of the holy spirit.” (Ac 2:37, 38).
Comments 2:

Witness for him (Jesus)
Quote
(Acts 22:15) because you are to be a witness for him to all men of things you have seen and heard.
Comments 3:

Study in detail, less than 1% of jws even study the WTS material in any detail let alone an unrequired study project.

Speculation: "you can imagine" "did some take time off...close shops" but to give "witness" but rather to attend all the "sessions" of each year's district convention?

Comments 4:

Going where many will be found: such as during the weekdays at home, Saturday morning when people are working in yard, recreating, but not home. Few jws will do business work or street work.

If Paul went to the synagogues, does that mean that jws should go to religious locations such as churches?

Comments 5:

Christians--only jws

Some people--who are these people, scholars? merely making shepherding calls? References?

That is plain...clearly--plain and clear how?

Comments 6:

One scholar--who?

Only reference was in 1991:
Quote
*** w91 1/15 p. 11 par. 4 Teach Publicly and From House to House ***
Commenting on Acts 20:20, Randolph O. Yeager wrote that Paul taught “both in public assemblies [demosia] and from house to house (distributive [kata] with the accusative). Paul had spent three years in Ephesus. He visited every house, or at least he preached to all of the people (verse 26). Here is scriptural warrant for house to house evangelism as well as that carried on in public meetings.”
What about other scholars that don't agree with the WTS position?

Comments 7:

Do you think it likely--may have--likely--some may have---more SPECULATION

Comments 8:

The Bible does not specify...may have...may also have---more continued SPECULATION

Comments 9:

YEAR TEXT: Acts 20:24

Comments 10:

include others besides the apostles--how much quality time do the elders spend in door to door? Or the GB members?

likely 500--speculation again

all true Christians--only jws

Comments 11:

Zealous Christians--only jws

Why finally citing a source? Using only sources that support their premise?

http://cumorah.com/index.php?target=law_harvest&chapter_id=17
Quote
Actual Performance versus the Divine Standard

While the admonitions to "open our mouths," "lift up our voice," and "thrust in our sickle" by speaking with others about the gospel at all times are the most frequent instructions on missionary work found in the scriptures, the implementation of these scriptural mandates is the rare exception rather than the rule. Missionaries I have surveyed in numerous U.S. missions reported spending an average of less than five hours per week tracting or finding through their own efforts, even though most had fewer than five active investigators. As a missionary in Russia, I was shocked when the mission president stated after collecting contacting data from missionaries that the average missionary was approaching only five to ten new people each day. In 1999, only 2 to 4 percent of people I surveyed in two Eastern European capitals reported ever being approached by Latter-day Saints or "Mormon" missionaries. Over 70 percent reported being personally approached by Jehovah's Witnesses, often multiple times. Many LDS missionaries felt that they had all the time in the world to eke a handful of referrals out of a few new members, while the Jehovah's Witnesses and other more rapidly growing faiths recognized the urgency of reaching large numbers of people quickly.
Comments 12:

personally approached--how many people not home and only left literature in the door? Multiple times....then why do so few in this area can

remember being called on by jws?

Do jws share a Bible verse or a scriptural thought...do they really read from the Bible, maybe one out of 100. Not many receptive...how many jws want people to do more than take literature, not wanting to be tied down to a home bible study each week, most likely on the weekend?
"as you likely know" proof?

Comments 13:

Now here is the door out for many jws...if no one listen to my lame attempt, I can clear my conscience by thinking that somehow, mysteriously someone because a jw despite that.

Not just directly...ever hear the comment that just by seeing jws in the territory is a witness, not a word spoken

Many jws avoid talking to neighbors, coworkers, classmates, relatives, not wanting to be shut out socially.

dormant...inadvertently

Comments 14:

Is this example verifiable? Based on my experience with parts on the conventions...it rarely resembles reality.

Why did this woman look up jws on the Internet and not see any other websites?

Comments 15:

Adam to Armageddon discussion--a good thing for jws to do? Is that why it is so hard to make a point with jws on just one subject as they jump around to 20 topics in one visit?

Comments 16:

Had no idea--unknown to you--Translation: jws don't have to try very hard, make return visits, or conduct book studies because somehow God will see to it that the sheep are found.

Comments 17:

In other ways............

How Would You Answer?
How did the apostles Peter and Paul and others in the first century bear thorough witness?

Why may the effect of our witnessing be far greater than we know?

What is the yeartest for 2009, and why do you feel that it is fitting?

Closing Comments

Checking the "suggested" presentations from the WTS, they never use "Jehovah" not wanting to put off people at the door. jws avoid identifying themselves as jws for the same reason. Rarely is the kingdom mentioned and the opening subject usually highlights a problem in society.

March 9, 2009, "Come Be My Follower." Do jws really follow Christ and witness for him? Is the only way through the WTS?
Quote
*** w75 9/1 p. 527 par. 6 Have Intense Love for One Another ***
So the Christian must seek and follow the leading of God’s holy spirit in union with the organization that Jehovah is using on the earth today.

*** w90 10/1 p. 30 Do You Follow Instructions? ***
We should follow the instructions that the Head of the Christian congregation, Jesus Christ, gives through “the faithful and discreet slave,” the appointed channel of God’s organization here on earth. (Matthew 24:45-47; Ephesians 5:23)
Love, Blondie
minimus

This WT. "proves" that Paul went from "house to house" and preached just like Jehovah's Witnesses do today.
WTWizard

Yet another wimpy study article with nothing more than "likely" and "perhaps". Remember, the Washtowel is telling us that we have to use these techniques (or get hounded severely--you never refuse to take them up on "suggestions"), and the best they come up with is "likely". Which the Bible is not explicit in stating whether or not they did things that way--what if the Washtowel is wrong? Keeping in mind that people are being asked to stake their lives on "likely" or "perhaps" coming from that source.
I think it's pretty lame when a person types in "Jehovah's Witnesses" into a search engine and refuses to research past the first site that comes up. If I am doing research on something that I am looking into joining, I want at least three independent sources--and more is better, especially with something I am going to stake my life on. Why didn't they come to this forum in addition to the official site--or www.freeminds.org , or Wikipedia, or www.carm.org , or www.beliefnet.com , www.rickross.com , or www.bible.ca ? These are commonly found on the same page--most (Freeminds was not) were on the top 10 when I ran the exact same search as was mentioned in Paragraph 14. This "experience" has to have been embellished--I couldn't imagine someone researching something they are going to stake their lives on with only a single source!
BluesBrother

A pretty much , "Ho Hum..." forgettable article unless one is motivated by it to give a "thorough witness"..?
P 14 seemed unusual though (cannot cut and paste this week) the experience recounted how she typed Jehovahs Witness into the search engine on the Internet and found her way into the org (I will not call it the truth)
But they have always counselled against doing that..Was that an oversight on somebody's part or do they now recommend that we Google J W's?
I wonder what else that girl found on the net under J W's? Did she even look here? It goes to show that some people are still impressed by the message even though it is debunked before their eyes..
BTW ...I have noticed these illustrations of Paul in "The Ministry" showing the householder a scripture in his scroll..I cannot recal a scriptural reference to him carrying small scrolls around. My impression is that they were big, heavy and kept in the synagogue as valuable items.. I wonder if that is a WT invention? It seem to be a devise to make the average publisher feel that they are like the apostles when they pull out their NWT??
I could be wrong, if anyone has any information on this?
passwordprotected

It's interesting that they cite a study where JWs are compared favourable with Mormons. Because more people, when surveyed, reported being approached by a JW, that must mean that JWs are more successful and therefore are blessed by God...and are true Christians.
A couple of points worth noting about that;
Mormons have more members, grow faster and hold onto their kids. JWs may speak to more people, but that doesn't equate to conversions. Mormons are better at that. So, if your goal is to grow more members - and remember, JWs are the onlytrue religion leading to life - they aren't doing such a great job for all of their door-to-door bluster; Mormons beat them.
Secondly, and this is typical WTS reasoning, they've used a quote which compares two religions who are known for their door knocking. Why not compare both those religions with Christianity around the globe? The church we attend has seen a growth of around 8 people become Christians thanks to their Alpha Course in the last 2 years. This is a church of 50 members. They don't knock on doors, but they open the church one evening a week, give people a meal, engage them in a 45 minute discourse and have a chat with them afterwards. It's opt-in, not in-your-face. Compare that model with the activities of Christians as described in Acts. It was very much meeting together, sharing meals, talking about Christ. And look at the growth they achieved. What did Jesus do? He met with people, fed them and talked about his kingdom. Oh, and Jesus specifically said don't go from door to door.
My contention for around a year has been that the WTS wants to restrict the preaching of their unique good news to door-to-door work for one very good reason; the internet. Rather than using the 'net to broadcast their unique life saving message, they virtually eschew it. "Oh, but we have a website!", they may say. Great, but the website is straight out of the 90s. Where are the YouTube videos, where are the podcasts, where are the discussion forums? Where's the transparency and honesty? Surely they know that the internet is the world's biggest, most amazing communication tool. So, why restrict people to going from door-to-door (ok, they do telephone, street and letter work too..)? It's because they're fearful of an interested householder meeting JWs, going onto their computer and Googling them. We all know what they're going to find when they do that.
Door-to-door work during the hours of 9.30 - 11.30 guarantees JWs will hardly ever speak to anyone.
And why in the illustration on page 17 is Paul carting around scrolls? Notice who he's speaking to. Looks like Romans or Gentiles to me. So what on earth was written on the scrolls?! Jewish prophecies? Jewish Law?
Mary

5. Some who became Christians qualified in time to be elders, those to whom Paul spoke in Miletus. Paul reminded them of the method he had used: "I did not hold back from telling you any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching you publicly and from house to house." In our time, some people have claimed that Paul was here referring merely to making shepherding calls on believers. But, no. The description 'teaching publicly and from house to house' mainly applied to evangelizing among unbelievers. That is plain from his next words. Paul said that he had been witnessing "both to Jews and to Greeks about repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus." Clearly, Paul had been bearing witness to unbelievers, who needed to repent and put faith in Jesus.-Acts 20:20,21
And once again, the Writing Department ignores the very scriptures they use to support their idea that Paul was "preaching house to house" to strangers when it is clearly referring to believers. Here is the quote from Acts 20:17-20:
"However, from Mi•le´tus he sent to Eph´e•sus and called for the older men of the congregation. When they got to him he said to them: "YOU well know how from the first day that I stepped into the [district of] Asia I was with you(obviously referring to the ‘older men of the congregation) the whole time, slaving for the Lord with the greatest lowliness of mind and tears and trials that befell me by the plots of the Jews; while I did not hold back from telling YOU any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching YOU publicly and from house to house."
Verse 17 clearly states that Paul met with the ‘older men of the congregation', or elders. Whatever you might call them, the point is: they were already believers. Verses 18-20 further shows that Paul was addressing these very men when he says that he did not hold back from teaching them either publically or from ‘house to house'.
The paragraph tries to claim that Paul was actually referring to the unbelieving Jews and Greeks mentioning in Acts 20:21 when referring to the ‘house to house' preaching, but it clearly is not, because his preaching to them is mentioned after he addressed the ‘older men of the congregation'. No one is trying to claim that Paul didn't preach to non-believers because obviously he did. What is in dispute of course, is the idea that Paul went and knocked consecutively on each door of the unbelievers----a fanciful idea that is found nowhere in the bible.
6. In an extensive analysis of the Christian Greek Scriptures, one scholar said of Acts 20: 20: "Paul had spent three years in Ephesus. He visited every house, or at least he preached to all of the people (verse 26). Here is scriptural warrant for house to house evangelism as well as that carried on in public meetings."
Why in God's name don't they never reference anything?? It's a pain in the ass to try and find out where they get this stuff from. The only thing I could find was this quote that they're probably referring to:
"Commenting on Acts 20:20, Randolph O. Yeager wrote that Paul taught "both in public assemblies [de•mo•si´a] and from house to house (distributive [ka•ta´] with the accusative). Paul had spent three years in Ephesus. He visited every house, or at least he preached to all of the people (verse 26). Here is scriptural warrant for house to house evangelism as well as that carried on in public meetings."
What the average Witness is not going to think about, is that the Greek de•mo•si´a (public assemblies) is referring to public preaching whereas kat'oikous is referring to private teaching. So wouldn't knocking on strangers doors be regarded as public teaching? It's not being done in private. Ya.....best not to think about that too much eh? Not only that, but according to the NWT, Acts 2:46 reads:
"And day after day they were in constant attendance at the temple with one accord, and they took their meals in private homes (kat'oikous) and partook of food with great rejoicing and sincerity of heart." The footnote they have for Acts 2:46 says: "Or, "from house to house." Gr., kat' oi´kon. See 5:42 ftn, "House."
Obviously, the reference to ‘house to house' is referring to either the private spiritual gatherings amongst those who were already believers, as well as referring to the ‘breaking of bread' or ‘taking of a meal' in a private house. There is absolutely nothing in scriptures to support the idea that either Paul, Jesus himself or any of the other early Christians preached in the way Jehovah's Witnesses are made to today.
Whether he literally visited every house, as this scholar claims, or not, Paul did not want the Ephesian elders to forget how he had borne witness and with what result.
Now this is just weird. After going to such lengths to try and ‘prove' that Paul preached ‘door to door', they are now in essence, saying ‘well, we're not sure how correct this scholar was, but it's the only thing we could find to support our theory.'
10. The order "to preach to the people and to give a thorough witness" came to include others besides the apostles. When the resurrected Jesus spoke to disciples gathered in Galilee, likely 500 of them, he commanded: "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you." That command applies to all true Christians today, as Jesus' words indicate: "Look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things."-Matt. 28:19, 20.
I love how the Society likes to pick and chose which scriptures apply to ALL Witnesses, and which scriptures apply to only the ‘annointed'. When talking about who gets to go to heaven, partake at the Memorial, or having Jesus as the Mediator, then they claim it's referring only to a select few. Yet with regards to preaching, suddenly that is referring to all Witnesses. All JW's are expected to preach, attend all the meetings, assemblies, follow all of the Society's doctrines even at the cost of your own life (or that of your child's), yet virtually none of them will be rewarded with heavenly life. Not only that, but as we all know, there is clear evidence that not every Christian in the first century preached like Paul did. Everyone had a gift, and they were all used in different manners. Only some had the gift of preaching:
"...And he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers..." Ephesians 4:11
"...And God has set the respective ones in the congregation, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then powerful works; then gifts of healings; helpful services, abilities to direct, different tongues. Not all are apostles, are they? Not all are prophets, are they? Not all are teachers, are they? Not all perform powerful works, do they? Not all have gifts of healings, do they? Not all speak in tongues, do they? Not all are translators, are they?" (1 Corinthians 12:28-30)
In 1999, only 2 to 4 percent of people I surveyed in two Eastern European capitals reported ever being approached by Latterday Saints or 'Mormon' missionaries. Over 70 percent reported being personally approached by Jehovah's Witnesses, often multiple times."
Typical put down by the Borg to try and minimize what other religions have done----in this case, the Mormons. It's a well known fact that the Mormons (while still a very high control group) encourage their followers to get a good education and to make the most of themselves. The fact that ‘only 2 to 4 %' of people had been approached by the Mormons in comparison with 70% being approached by the Witnesses doesn't really mean much when you look at the results. In 2004, the Mormons were the fourth largest religious group in the USA with over 5.5 million members------just a million shy of the total number of Jehovah's Witnesses world-wide. The Mormon religion began a mere 40 years before Charles Russell started his group, yet today the Mormons have a membership double that of the WTS.
So does it really matter one bit that more people have been approached by the Witnesses if you're not seeing any results? Not only that, but aren't they always saying that Jehovah's Witnesses are the ONLY ones preaching about God's Kingdom?? How can that be when they've now admitted that the Mormons preach house to house as well??
This is what I find so annoying about this frigging religion. No matter what any other religious group does, they have to knock them down. If other groups do charitable work, it's either a scam or it makes no difference because they're all part of ‘Babylon the Great'. If another group preaches, it makes no difference because they don't have the title ‘Watchtower' on their literature. Nothing any of the other religions do is any good no matter how you view it. Why? Because we say so.
So Jodi typed "Jehovah's Witnesses" in an Internet search engine, which led her to our Web site www.watchtower.org. For months, Jodi read material on that site, including the Bible and articles of interest.
Wow....first of all, are they encouraging witnessing by means of the evil internet?? Geeze....there's no scripture saying that Jesus or his disciples used the internet to preach.......And isn't Satan de Debbil in charge of Yahoo! and Google search engines??
Regardless, lets say this "Jodi" is a real person and actually became a Witness.....Wouldn't that mean that there are more effective ways of preaching today in the 21st century than by knocking on doors, mostly of those who are never home??
Another study article designed to try and shore up the flock with their insistence that the first century Christians preached door to door. Anyone else notice that Jesus was barely mentioned in the entire study article and that they could not provide one single reference to Jesus knocking on doors?
There is obviously a huge decline in both the quality and quantity of ‘the preaching work' and many Witnesses are slowing down big time. Most of the problem is that a lot of Witnesses have been preaching for most, if not all of their lives, the same message: Armageddon is right around the corner. These Witnesses gave up a lot in their lives because they were assured that the New System would be here long before now. While perhaps not giving up entirely, the fact that you can still be counted as a publisher on as little as 15 minutes a month shows how desperate they are to keep their statistics up.
AllTimeJeff

Great article, and the scan works a lot better for me. Thanks Blondie, well done as always... (remember, I always attend your WT Study, but don't always comment. )
And why in the illustration on page 17 is Paul carting around scrolls? Notice who he's speaking to. Looks like Romans or Gentiles to me. So what on earth was written on the scrolls?! Jewish prophecies? Jewish Law?
Excellent point. This is the kind of art that is dangerous, (not the hysterical claims about subliminal art) because it makes it seem to the poor JW in his seat that Paul had the bible back then in his bookbag.
Was there a version of Stoops around that made special Christian satchels and bound vellium scrolls back then? lol
Just a couple of observations: This article has the now famous example of the interested man entering "Jehovah's Witnesses" on the internet, which is precisely what the GB wants JW's NOT to do. Also, as has been noted, there are many of these little blurbs as Blondie mentioned:
Comments 7:Do you think it likely--may have--likely--some may have---more SPECULATION

Comments 8:

The Bible does not specify...may have...may also have---more continued SPECULATION
I am not saying this is the case, but it reminds of the article re: oral sex that Ray Franz reports that he penned in 78. It was reasonable. Even while I was in, I noticed the difference in tone.
This article has a different tone. Yes, it does state traditional JW dogma, but the tone is different. I am not saying to read anything into that per se, but it does strike me as so.....
Goshawk

Thank you Blondie.
I had forgotten how much I enjoyed these comments.
Leolaia

On the matter of Acts 20:20, note also that "from house to house" is paired with "publicly" to refer to the two spheres of Paul's teaching work with the Christians of Ephesus ("you"), this implies that the teaching "from house to house" is not public (as in the sense of the JW ministry which centers on the non-believing public), but represents private instruction in the homes of Christian believers. The two spheres are related in the stories in ch. 19-20. In Acts 19:8-10 we read of Paul's public teaching: "Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God. But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus. This went on for two years, so that all the Jews and Greeks who lived in the province of Asia heard the word of the Lord". This public teaching was not by visiting personal homes but in large public spaces, such as the synagogue and a lecture hall. But we also encounter Paul's more private teaching in Acts 20:7-12 when Paul taught in the upper room of a house (compare 1:13-14) in what was a more private meeting of believers, as they were gathered there to break bread (= observe the eucharist). When the Society cites this particular story, they usually compare it with their kingdom hall meetings and not their public preaching work. In large cities, Christians gathered in several house churches and did not yet have public buildings of their own (cf. Romans 16:5, 1 Corinthians 1:11, 16:19, Colossians 4:15, Philemon 1:2).
bobld

Thanks Blondie
So more than 70% of J.W. go from door to door compared to 2-4% of Mormons.Yet the 2-4% of mormon's
are more successful than the 70% of J.W.Something is wrong with the J.W. message.The many many years
of training has not help the cause of J.W. of going from D-to-D.Now they will try the WWW,because the door
to door work is NOT bring in the MONEY any more. Why not use T.V.,radio like other successful ministry.They
can even reach people in dictator counrties such as:China,Iran,N.K. ETC.
Bob

Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 03-01-09 WT Study (THOROUGH WITNESS)

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