I like how they have membership statuses over on the JW support site: "study", "return visit", "publisher", "elder" and so on. That's cute, who thought that up?
Greg Stafford no longer a JW
by My Struggle 38 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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JimmyPage
who thought that up?
My guess is it wasn't a woman.
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wobble
I have an abiding respect for Greg,I believe him to be sincere,but very mistaken. His writings were among the first I found when I went on line at the start of my fade,it was so wonderfull to find someone who felt the same as me about 1914!
I then graduated to other sites and felt I was home when I found this one.I do not agree with quite a lot of what he says,i.e he believes Jesus used the devine name in public,and he believes that there is much that is good about JW teachings,with his knowledge of Greek and the scriptures in general I fail to understand why he ever bothered to "defend" the Dubs.
Love
Wobble
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Farkel
bonsaison,
You do a poor job of trying to masquerade as a nice, reasonable person.
:Mr. Farkel, now that you perhaps have had more time to think over your stated opinions above, after the hearty laughter, do you still think what I said is "rubbish"
I'm glad you had a good laugh. Laughs are a good thing, even if it is self-directed.
It thought it over for as long as it took: 1 nanosecond, and it still doesn't change the fact that it is rubbish. If your argument is that congregations can do whatever they want to do independently of the WTS, then yes, it is rubbish.
Since you didn't address my argument, let me make it easy for youby repeating it in baby-sized chunks:
: The WTS doesn't do the "marking", it is the Congregation.
True or false?
: It was the WTS that had "issues" with Ray Franz, and it was the WTS that instructed his local Congregation to go "get" him.
True or false?
:To think that the local Congregations can act in any sort of defiance with the WTS is lunacy.
True or false?
" The CO is the local henchmen directly working for and appointed by the WTS. If the WTS tells him to "get" someone in a Congregation and the Elders don't do it, do you think the WTS is going to sit by impotent, frustrated and helpless and not do anything about it?
Well? Is that statement and following question true or false?
Just because Furuli isn't DFd doesn't prove your point, either. Furuli used to be more the WT apologist than Greg. I don't know what he's up to these days. The last thing I read was his defense of the Gentile Times in rebuttal to Jonsson.
:because you are a disagreeable kind of person or because you like to insult others' opinions if they are different from yours, or perhaps this is the way things are done at this forum and I should just like it and put up with it?
False dilemma, a logical fallacy. You didn't present all the possible reasons why I said your argument was rubbish. You forgot the possibility I said it was rubbish because it just happened to BE rubbish.
If you want a forum where everyone agrees on everything, then find a JWs-Only forum. No dissent will be allowed there. If you don't expect any of what you say to be challenged, then you don't belong here. You are welcome to defend yourself, though, as I said your ARGUMENTS were rubbish. You attacked me PERSONALLY saying I liked to insult others, and/or was disagreeable. That is usually what people do when they can't support their arguments. That is what dubs ALWAYS do when they can't support their arguments. Ignore the actual argument and impute a "bad" motive for the person making the argument. It's logical fallacy called an "ad hominem". It's also rather childish.
:Well, I suggest to you, Sir, that your response seems to be the "rubbish" compared with other posts that followed yours and alluded to the fact that indeed Congregation elders don't always act the way the WTS would like.
Argumentum ad populum. That's also a logical fallacy. And the facts in my argument don't change, even if a million people said otherwise: if the WTS is truly out to "get" someone, no elders in the Kingdom Hall Universe can prevent it. That was my entire argument, and if Ray Franz who did NOTHING wrong was hanged by the WTS, what makes you think Greg Stafford or anyone else could be protected by local elders IF the WTS was truly out to "get" them?
Farkel
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Confession
For a bit of clarity about Greg's present disposition, his blog posts do not always center upon the WTS, but this past December he left a post that did. Here are a couple of excerpts...
Jehovah's Witnesses associated with and loyal to the Watchtower Society today are required to accept what the Watchtower Society teaches as if it is "the voice of God" (from The Watchtower, June 15, 1957, page 370, par. 7). This is required by the Society in spite of its many false teachings and failed expectations which it has published for over 100 years, and advanced by those loyal to it simply because the Society tells them that this is what is true, even if what is true later becomes something they consider false. The basis for belief, then, is not the Bible, but the Watchtower Society.
That is a terrible place to find oneself, especially if your intent in starting out with a particular group or organization is to "draw close to God" and to do his will (Hebrews 10:36; James 4:8). I know, because I was in just such a place in association with the Watchtower Society. But after going through my own struggle for faith, and after a good deal of personal evaluation and appreciation for the fact that my baptism was a symbol of my dedication to Jesus of Nazareth and to his Father, it became clear that I needed to continue on in service to them alone or with "two or three" or however many more Christians I can find (Matthew 18:20). Men and their organizations may or may not be helpful in furthering the truth about God, that is, depending on whether they teach what can be shown to be true or most likely true based on good reasons. Why? Because men fail. Organizations fail. But Jesus and Jehovah have given us life, hope, love, and they have never lied or misrepresented the truth, as so many of us have done.
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leavingwt
This is required by the Society in spite of its many false teachings and failed expectations which it has published for over 100 years, and advanced by those loyal to it simply because the Society tells them that this is what is true, even if what is true later becomes something they consider false. The basis for belief, then, is not the Bible, but the Watchtower Society.
If those are indeed his words, he is, by definition, an Apostate. Right?
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wobble
By the WTB$ definition , yes,but I would be interested to know if it is true that no action has been taken against him by the last Congo. he associated with,great if they havn't,but if not WHY not?
Love
Wobble
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yknot
Yep he is clearly an apostate by Flock book definition....
We all struggle to find ourselves spiritually when we begin to see the manipulations of the WTS.
He is no different.
I wonder if he will remain a fundamentalist or move onto progressive Xianity or mainline Xianity?
Here is the blog link again.... http://elihubooks.blogspot.com/
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yesidid
I would be interested to know if it is true that no action has been taken against him by the last Congo. he associated with,great if they havn't,but if not WHY not?
Below is a letter we wrote to a dear friend who is still an elder. It was in rely to a letter from him at the stage Greg was
considering going back... but on his terms:
Our dearest xxxxxxxxx,
Thank you for pointing out Greg Stafford’s web page. We had not seen it. It certainly is very interesting. There are many
positives about the brotherhood he didn’t even mention, such as the love of many brothers, not going to war, the scriptural
teachings about the trinity, the soul, hell etc.
Probably they were among the good things he had in mind when he spoke of the “good and the bad”. There are many
good people and teachings among the brotherhood of Jehovah’s Witnesses. That is a simple fact no reasonable person can deny.
Greg seems to be a sincere person and if he feels he should go back, that is as it should be.
It is only right he should be allowed to exercise his freedom of conscience and do as it dictates.
Do you think he realizes the uniqueness of his situation, and the way he has been handled?
Isn’t it amazing that he has been able to write a book negative of Witness teachings, not just peripheral matters but as
he said “ some of their more significant beliefs and organizational practices”, and not be disfellowshipped?
Why was he not treated the same as other Witnesses?
There are brothers whose variance of opinion is nothing like as radical as Greg’s but they are very judicious about
what they say, and to whom. They are terrified of being called “apostate” and disfellowshipped, but Greg can write
and publish a BOOK not just questioning, but contradicting “ significant beliefs and organizational practices”.
Why was he not disfellowshipped?
The QFR in the April 1’86 Watchtower was very clear. If you don’t accept all the teachings you are liable to be
disfellowshipped. It is spelled out very clearly. *(We are including it at the bottom in case you don’t have immediate recall.)
But then again: “ a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believersas far as faith and
knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it
comes to Bible understanding”.
We know people who have been disfellowshipped for not agreeing with the Society’s teachings, or questioning
their UN involvement. That is, just asking the elders about it and or not accepting the Society’s version
of the situation which directly contradicted the UN’s account. There was no attempt to speak to others.
They just told the elders their thoughts.
The Society had a relationship with the “wild beast”, but the publishers got disfellowshipped for talking
to the elders about it!!!!!!!!!
Going back to Greg’s page he also says:
“ By returning on a “limited basis” I mean I have met with the local elders and I have made known to them my
intentions of setting aside, for a time, my disagreements for the sake of our agreements. I will attend, with my
family, meetings on a limited basis”.
xxxxxxxxx, when did you ever hear a thing like that? A publisher writes a book disagreeing with major
organizational teachings then HE tells the elders: “I am coming back, but I will only attend on a limited basis!”
Come on! Kids who get into trouble in the back seat of a car can be disfellowshipped and then told that they
can come back, at some future time, but it will depend on their repenting and attending every meeting for
a period to be determined by the elders.
Greg Stafford did not have a momentary weakness. He published an “apostate” book. Then he is allowed
to tell the elders what he is going to do. He then went on to say:
“Three Dissertations will remain available so that I can speak freely and remain true to myself about what I believe,
though I have no desire to add anything further to what I have said.”
There is no talk of repentance; there is not the slightest indication that he is recanting a single word of his
“apostate” book: “ Three Dissertationswill remain available so that I can speak freely and remain true to
myself”.
Not only is he not recanting or repenting, he is keeping the book available. That obviously means others will
continue to have access to his “apostate” writings.
Why even the first sentence of his web page is not kosher. He says:
“ In 1990 I dedicated myself to Jesus Christ and committed myself to follow his teachings as the
will of Jehovah.”.
He knows Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t dedicate themselves to Jesus Christ. Jehovah’s Witnesses
dedicate themselves to Jehovah. Even now he is promoting “false teachings”.
What sort of a letter would you expect from Bethel if your body of elders allowed a publisher from your congregation
to remain in good standing after he had written an “apostate” book, which he informed you would be available to
others after he returned to the meetings? What if he was still promoting his “apostate” teachings on his website:
Would you expect to remain an elder?
The question is: Why is such independence of thought and complete freedom of expression allowed Greg Stafford,
when the rest of us would be severely punished for lesser infractions.
Please don’t misunderstand us xxxxxxxx, we are not complaining about the governing body’s treatment of Greg
Stafford, (for that is where the rulings must have emanated). We are just noting that his treatment has been
exceptional.
This exception emphasizes the rule. The rule being, as you know, “do not disagree with what is considered
“present truth”. Even if that “present truth” becomes “old truth”, you will still remain disfellowshipped and there will
be no apology forthcoming for the pain and anguish you have endured when all your loved ones were taken
from you, because you previously believed something that was not then, but is now, present truth.
In fact if everyone was treated in the same manner as Greg it would be wonderful. But true Christianity
is freedom for all, not just one. We all need that freedom. It’s the freedom for which Christ set us free.
We remember what James the brother of our Lord said about showing favoritism. We crave shepherds
who are not “lording it over those who are God’s inheritance”, but are “examples to the flock”.
Our thoughts are that our Christian journey is a very personal one. We each must make our own. Your journey will
take you to a different place and at a different time to ours. As a couple, our spiritual journeys have not been identical.
You and xxxxxxxx may not have always been at the same spiritual place at the same moment. It seems to us that
Christianity is not so much a religion as a relationship with Jesus Christ.
(Matthew 11:28-30) 28 Come to me, all YOU who are toiling and loaded down, and I will refresh YOU. 29 Take my yoke
upon YOU and learn from me, for I am mild-tempered and lowly in heart, and YOU will find refreshment for YOUR souls.
30 For my yoke is kindly and my load is light.” "
*Questions FromReaders
? WhyhaveJehovah’sWitnessesdisfellowshipped(excommunicated)forapostasysomewhostillprofessbeliefinGod,
theBible,andJesusChrist?
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Approved association with Jehovah’s Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of
the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses. What do such beliefs
include? That the great issue before humankind is the rightfulness of Jehovah’s sovereignty, which is why
he has allowed wickedness so long. (Ezekiel 25:17) That Jesus Christ had a prehuman existence and is
subordinate to his heavenly Father. (John 14:28) That there is a “faithful and discreet slave” upon
earth today ‘entrusted with all of Jesus’ earthly interests,’ which slave is associated with the
Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (Matthew 24:45-47) That 1914 marked the end of the Gentile
Times and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the heavens, as well as the time for Christ’s
foretold presence. (Luke 21:7-24; Revelation 11:15–12:10) That only 144,000 Christians will receive
the heavenly reward. (Revelation 14:1, 3) That Armageddon, referring to the battle of the great day of
God the Almighty, is near. (Revelation 16:14, 16; 19:11-21) That it will be followed by Christ’s
Millennial Reign, which will restore an earth-wide paradise. That the first to enjoy it will be the
present “great crowd” of Jesus’ “other sheep.”—John 10:16; Revelation 7:9-17; 21:3, 4.
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What we did not say in that letter was that we think that the GB learned a very sobering lesson when they
disfellowshipped Ray Franz. That lesson being: You don't disfellowship people who can write books!!!!
Doubly so if they are high profile. It's bad for business.
yesidid
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Nitty-Gritty
Greg Stafford is pictured on page 2 of the March 2016 meeting work book. I am not sure, but I think he WAS eventually disfellowshipped for apostasy, but is now evidently back..
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/jw-meeting-workbook/march-2016-mwb/meeting-schedule-mar7-13/welcome-memorial-guests/