The redeemed of YHWH eat the delicious flesh of "ZIZ"

by hamsterbait 12 Replies latest jw friends

  • hamsterbait
    hamsterbait

    Unfortunately I don't possess "The Legends of the Jews" by Louis Ginzberg.

    Apparently in Volume 5 of this work (pp 43 - 46) there is a description of the Messianic Banquet, where the redeemed of Yahweh, in their roof garden, are served the inexhaustible, delicious flesh of the monsters Behemoth, Leviathan and ZIZ(?), whilst drinking the liquors of the four sweet rivers of paradise.

    As far as I can find the WT only acknowledges the existence of the first two monsters, but makes no mention of Ziz.

    Leviathan they say is the crocodile (a memory of Egypt?) and Behemoth is the Hippopotamus (was this known in Israel? or another memory of Egypt??)

    Anybody know about this?

    HB

  • hamsterbait
    hamsterbait

    And yes - Ziz was a Gryphon like giant bird that blocked out the sun and caused eclipses. But that's all I have found out.

    HB

  • cameo-d
    cameo-d

    What will YHwh be serving to vegetarians and raw foodists at the party?

    BTW...very interesting find Hamsterbait.

    What is the real meaning of the alligator? What does the hippo represent? And the ziz makes three. Who are these three monsters depicting?

    Since when would Hebrews celebrate a Messianic banquet?

    griffin, gryphon
    1205, from O.Fr. grifon "a bird of prey," also "fabulous bird of Gk. mythology" (with head and wings of an eagle, body and hind quarters of a lion, believed to inhabit Scythia and guard its gold), from L.L. gryphus, misspelling of grypus, variant of gryps (gen. grypos ), from Gk. gryps (gen. grypos ) "curved, hook-nosed," in reference to its beak. But Klein suggests a Sem. source, "through the medium of the Hittites," and cites Heb. kerubh "a winged angel," Akkad. karibu, epithet of the bull-colossus (see cherub ).

    http://www.etymonline.com

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    The idea that Leviathan and Behemoth are names of real-world natural animals, the crocodile and hippopotamous respectively, goes back to the Renaissance Protestant author Samuel Bochart who proposed these identifications in 1663. Today these naturalizing identifications are generally rejected by biblical scholars, who recognize that the beasts described are fundamentally mythological (see the exhaustive discussion of the evidence in chapter 2 of John Day's God's Conflict With the Dragon and the Sea, 1985, Cambridge University Press). In particular, Leviathan (lwytn) appears in older Ugaritic texts as the seven-headed sea dragon Lotan (= Ladon in Greek mythology?), parallel to Yamm, Rahab, Tiamat, and other serpentine chaos monsters representing the sea (cf. Job 41:18-21, which describes Leviathan breathing out fire and smoke — which accords with the figure of a dragon rather than a crocodile, cf. Psalm 74:14 on Leviathan having multiple heads, and cf. Job 41:31-32 and Psalm 104:25-26 on the Leviathan dwelling in the open sea). The ox-like Behemoth in turn corresponds to Atik, El's calf, and Arsh, the "beloved of El", which are mentioned as slain by the goddess Anat in the same passage that mentions the seven-headed Lotan (KTU 1.3.III.43-44).

    The messianic banquet motif involving the carcasses of Leviathan and Behemoth is one example of the Urzeit-Endzeit principle, that the situation at the beginning of the world resumes at end of the world. Leviathan and Behemoth both have primeval connotations (cf. Job 26:12-13, 40:19, Psalm 74:12-15, 89:9-10), with the vanquishing of Rahab and Leviathan in particular being associated with Yahweh's creation of the world and the restraining of the forces of the watery deep (compare Enuma Elish, IV.93-V.62, Rig Veda 1.32.1-8, Job 38:4-11, Psalm 104:5-11, b. Bava Batra 74b). The provision of the body of Leviathan as food represents God's creative act of providing fresh water for animals on land: "You crushed the heads of Leviathan, leaving him for wild animals to eat, you opened the spring and the torrent, you dried up the inexhastible rivers. You made the day and yours is also the night, you established the sun and the moon; it was you who set all the boundaries of the earth and you made both summer and winter" (Psalm 74:12-17). Isaiah 27:1 (which almost verbatim recalls the wording in the Ugaritic description of Lotan) recasts Yahweh's battle against the sea dragon in eschatological terms, and Isaiah 25:6-8 is the passage that started the subsequent messianic banquet tradition in apocalyptic literature (cf. 1 Enoch 60:7-10, 4 Ezra 6:49-52, 2 Baruch 29:4, Midrash Rabbah, Bereshith 11.9).

    It is important to recognize that here Leviathan represents the sea and Behemoth represents the land. The Ziz is conspiuously absent in all older biblical and apocalyptic traditions and it is a fairly clear later addition to this underlying scheme; the Ziz fills out the third domain where God's creatures live — the sky. This represents an interpretation of Genesis 1:20 wherein God created on the fifth day creatures in the water and birds flying above the earth in the sky. The name Ziz was taken from Psalm 50:11: "I know every bird in the mountains and the moving creatures (zyz) of the field are mine". The midrash that produced the "Ziz" took zyz (which elsewhere only occurs in the OT at Psalm 80:13) as a name referring to a unique bird monster analoguous to the Leviathan and Behemoth, even tho in its original context kl-zyz referred to a class of moving creatures of the field and was only incidentally mentioned in the same sentence with birds. The character of the Ziz however embodies a mythological concept of a cosmic solar bird (cf. the Garuna of Indian mythology), and there is probably a precedent for it in 3 Baruch which draws on both Egyptian phoenix and Byzantine griffin traditions (ch. 6-8).

  • IP_SEC
    IP_SEC

    ZU ANZU ZUZU

  • hamsterbait
    hamsterbait

    Thanks Leo -

    That was a big help - esp. the bit about Ziz being the creature of the 3rd realm of creatures.

    Interestingly, most of the taboos of the Mosaic code on clean and unclean animals were made to enforce the perceived separation of "kinds" fish, flying creatures of the heavens, domestic animals, wild beasts of the field, creeping things of the field etc.

    Personally I think Abraham brought the prohibition on shellfish from Ur. The city had flush toilets tha emptied into the rivers and streams. It could only take a little time before people eating the shellfish from there to realise that every time they ate the sewage infected food they fell sick, and came to view them as unclean.

    I just dont get the "Roof Garden" bit of this.

    HB

  • hamsterbait
    hamsterbait

    Although Peter had his vision of the tablecloth on a roof - is this of significance??

    HB

  • cameo-d
    cameo-d

    would this be like a ziz?

  • cameo-d
    cameo-d

    Is this a Zis?

    zis?

  • cameo-d
    cameo-d

    If you move the picture where you can see the far right field, you will see the ziz sits upon the head of a military force.

    According to wiki: The ziz (Hebrew: ???) is a giant griffin like bird in Jewish mythology, said to be large enough to be able to block out the sun with its wingspan. The Ziz is also believed to be a simple metaphor for air and space, along with the Behemoth as land and Leviathan as the seas and oceans.

    (griffin-like, but not a griffin, I suppose. However, it is interesting to note that these words from the myths are still used in aerial warfare capacity today. Several spellings for griffin include:griffon, in other senses usually griffin, though gryphon is used by many writers as having more dignified associations."[3]Less common variants include gryphen, griffen, and gryphin)

    Published May 2009: The U.S> Navy has contracted Gryphon Technologies to support the chemical biological defense IPE program.

    GT will be required to help the program maintain readiness while "facing the demands of a war time posture".

    Griffins are normally known for guarding treasure. [1] In antiquity it was a symbol of divine power and a guardian of the divine. [2]

    In heraldry, the griffin's amalgamation of lion and eagle ....is always drawn as a powerful fierce monster. It is used to denote strength and military courage and leadership.

    (Is the ziz the guardian of the harlots flocks? Religions are losing their patrons due to education. They are losing their wealth due to lawsuits and settlements for their evil doing. Time for the ziz bird to swoop. Do you think the ziz is the bird that's supposed to attack "apostates'"?)

    Being a union of a terrestrial beast and an aerial bird, it was seen in Christianity to be a symbol of Jesus , who was both human and divine. As such it can be found sculpted on churches. [1]

    (For some reason, this just does not ring true to me as an explanation. Isn't satan the "prince of the power of the air"?

    This is a sinister bird.)

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