Excellent find! Good old Luke. :)
So...Did Judas Leave Before the Lord's Evening Meal?
by undercover 26 Replies latest jw friends
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parakeet
Undercover: "Ruth's Chris was known as Ruth's Esther back then......and it would have taken at least 40 pieces of silver to get a good steak and bottle of wine."
But so worth it, don't you think?
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JosephMalik
Undercover,
Additional detail to consider:
Lev 9:11 The fourteenth day of the second month at even they shall keep it, and eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. 12 They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it.
Preparation for the meal took place on the 14 th as shown here, but the eating of it would be the 15 th as the next morning was always the 15 th since dates changed the evening before. The food consumed during that meal or at least the Lamb used during it had to be discarded. This is another reason why the thinking of the Apostles was: John 13:29 For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor. 30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night. They would need fresh food and fresh meat that was not part of this meal for the next day. This was available to buy at night since only on such a special Sabbath of this feast could that food be prepared and sold. And it was clearly during the ongoing feast and not during the Preparation for it that this occured.
Joseph
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undercover
But so worth it, don't you think?
40 pieces of silver...I'd have to betray two Messiahs...
But you're right, a good steak is worth it
JoeMalik, thanks for the info. When I get some time, I'm gonna try to wrap my head around the whole Passover thing and how things were actually done. If anyone knows of a website on this kind of stuff, it would be helpful.
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undercover
Another shameless BTTT of one of my Memorial threads...
'tis the season, ya know
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pixel
Exellent info here. Nowhere in years the Witnesess will have all this knowledge that we share here.
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minimus
so whats the answer?
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leaving_quietly
This is a hotly debated topic, not just among JWs. The JW understanding is largely accepted by non-JWs, from what I've been able to research. Matthew and John were actually there. Mark was likely told what happened by Peter at some later date, and Peter was there. We don't know where Luke got his information from. He simply states he "traced all things from the start with accuracy."
I am inclined to say that Judas partook of the Passover Meal, but not of the bread and the wine following that. The only thing that makes me hesitate is the missing double-quote mark at the end of Luke 22:20. If it were there, then it would be easy to see a break in Jesus' words between verses 20 and 21. However, since it's missing, to me, that indicates no break in Jesus' words, and thus the action of giving a morsel to Judas (or Jesus and Judas dipping their morsels in the bowl at the same time, depending on whose account you read) would have taken place after Jesus broke the loaf and handed each person a piece.
The answer is that no one today reallly knows. It makes more sense that Judas was not there, that he departed prior to Jesus instituting the new convenant. But Luke's account throws a wrench into that.
Some say that John's account shows that the evening meal (the Passover meal) had ended in John 13:1-4. Those verses, however, do not say the evening meal was over. John 1:2 says, "while the evening meal was going on". Jesus washed the feet of the apostles, and this included Judas. Verse 4 simply says Jesus "got up from the evening meal". This simply means he rose from his position, but as verse 2 noted, the evening meal was still going on. Thus, it could very well be that the morsel Jesus gave to Judas was from the Passover bread.
So, the big question is: where did the morsel come from? The Passover meal? Or the loaf Jesus broke when instituting the new covenant?
To me, this does throw into question the "inspiration" of the scriptures. Matthew and John seem to contradict each other with one saying Jesus and Judas dipped their morsels into the bowl at the same time, and the other saying that Jesus gave Judas the morsel. Luke has it out of chronological order, perhaps. Unfortunately, one cannot, with the information given, come to a solid conclusion. One can only come to a conclusion based on personal feeling about the matter, which would normally be: why would Jesus allow Judas to be present at the institution of the new covenant when he knew Judas was about to betray him?
Of course, when I read John's account, I think to myself: how stupid can the other apostles be? Jesus just got done announcing that whomever he gives the morsel to would betray him. He gives it to Judas and tells Judas to get it done quickly, and the apostles are that out of it that they think it had something to do with buying something for the festival??? This part makes no sense to me. It almost gives credence to Judas actually being present and some time passing between Jesus talking about the betrayer, telling everyone it's who he gives the morsel to, then later, after everyone's forgotten that conversation, actually gives it to Judas.
Again, though... there's no solid conclusion based on these scriptures. Only what one wants to believe.
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pixel
From Luke 22:19-21
19 Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: “This means my body which is to be given in ? YOUR ? behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” 20 Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in ? YOUR ? behalf.
21 “But, look! the hand of my betrayer is with me at the table.
Doesn't this mean that Judas WAS during the Lord's Meal, when Jesus said: "T he hand of my betrayer is with me at the table"????
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leaving_quietly
If read forward only time-wise, yes. And the fact that the double-quote marks do not end verse 20. And, this is the one thing that makes me want to say Judas was indeed present. However, Luke himself was not present at that event. His account is hearsay only. He totally could have been wrong on the order of events. I'm not arguing that he was, only that he could be. John's account has Judas leaving immediately, but we don't know when "immediately" was in the events of the evening because John does not mention the bread and wine. Thus, we're only left guessing. Like I said, it all boils down to what you want to believe.
And, not that I'm an apologist for the Society, but this teaching is not unique to JWs. Just do a google search for "was Judas present" (with the quotes) and see a large variety of non-JW postings on the topic.
Of interest, Paul quotes Luke's words in 1 Cor. 11. Luke and Paul spent a lot of time together. Neither were present for the Passover that night. So, it's unknown to me who was quoting who. Was Paul quoting Luke? Or was Luke quoting Paul?
Ah, if only the scriptures were CLEAR on matters like this... *sigh*