Nothing has changed

by Norm 19 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Englishman

  I don't see any point in chiding America for retaliating so massively, and the British people are so much behind them that we are also sending in troops.

  In the UK we have encountered so much terrorism via the IRA that we have become a little blase about it.

  Maybe, if years ago the RAF had got the OK to fly over Belfast and Dublin with the bomb doors open, maybe we could have discouraged it.

  As for the value of peoples lives, you must remember that Muslim fundies dont value anyones life very much, and that includes their own. Mind you, they will certainly milk their innocent casualty figures for all they are worth.

  Englishman.

  Bring on the dancing girls!
• 

  Seeker

  Expatbrit,

  Muslim extremists do not hate America for what America has done, but for what America is. The greatest threat to their continued acquisition of power. The freedoms of America, culturally, economically, sexually; freedoms for women and non-conformists, are the antithesis of their control system. Such attitiudes spread to the Muslim world would so obviously mean their own demise.

  I guess I agree with what you are saing, but not quite the wording you use in the second part of your statement above. Maybe I'm just reading it wrong and we do agree after all. This idea that they hate our freedom is just the propaganda that Bush has been pushing, but I don't think it's true. They do not hate our freedom. As you say, what they hate is what America represents -- the present world power that stands in opposition to their ability to convert the world to Islam. Islam has a continual world view of believers versus infidels, and that there will be a continual conflict between the two sides until one side (obviously for them, the believers) triumphs, either through conversion or the sword.

  Throughout history, there has always been one country or group of countries in the Western world that has the most power, and that country thus becomes the focal point of fundamentalist Muslim animosity. America has that place at the moment, and thus became the target.

  It isn't personal. It has nothing to do with our lifestyle, except in a very indirect way. They do not hate our freedom, as much as Bush blathers on about that. We merely represent the latest in a long line of infidel powers that block them from their goal. If that is what you meant, then we do agree.
• 

  Norm

  Hi there Ab,

  Finally a voice of reason, at least I think so. Among other things you said:

  So we have a group of people with a worldview that is incompatable with human rights (look at the Amnesty International statement about human rights infrigements AGAINST Palestinians BY Palestinians, let alone the stuff we know about other Muslim theocracies HR record, as well as the less advanced socio-political-educational indicators of many Arab countries). Some believe they can fight by any means, the enemy, which is the West in general, the USA in particular, and atheistic, single, female University graduates, with short skirts, being the image of Satan himself. Ally McBeal is Satan... cool...

  Very well put. The “orthodox” Islam seem to be at the point in “development” as Christianity was during the dark ages (the one the Christian fundies long back to), before enlightenment and secular humanism was able to bring the loonies under control.

  'Our' backing of the Israeli regime, who have with Western backing carried out the most sustained campaign of ethnic cleansing and apartheid since WWII, makes Arabs in general take everything we say with a pinch of salt. We haul Slobodan Milosovich off to the Hauge, and yet someone they see in the same light is Israeli PM!!
  Thus, the fanatic theocrats, scared of the West as Westernisation means they lose power (having the historical decline in the power of the Christian church as evidence), can point their followers to our lack of action in Palestine as an example of 'Western hatred of Islam' (when it's got more to do with Jewish political lobbyists, and no, it's not a Zionist conspiracy, it's just people looking after their own like humans do), and win the argument they want to win with the ammunition we supply them... and the $5 billion of aid Israel get from the US each year, chiefly in military aid, gives the mullahs a lot of ammunition. And as the US is ipso facto World policeman, the US gets especial blame for not sorting it out.

  Again very well put and it reminds me of the simple fact that English isn’t my mother tongue. What you point out here is in my opinion the single fact that cause moderate and sensible Muslims to be extremely skeptic about the attitudes of the “west”.

  Solution?

  Well, I'm tempted to build a big wall around Palestine and Israel and let them get on with it, no aid, no arms, no food. Same with Northern Ireland. But that's not morally workable, so...
  ... stop aid to Israel? Bomb the fuck out of an Israeli town if there's any violence against Arabs, and visa-versa if there's violence against Israeli's. Give the $5Billion to the UN for equal distribution to Palestinians and Israelis?

  Well, I have another solution, just as realistic as yours . Move the entire Israeli population to New Mexico and the problem would be over. Then the US population could have the “privilege” of getting their villages and homes taken over by their favorite people.

  I've got no beef against Islam, it's just not a sociologically mature religion yet... I'm not saying Christianity is 'mature', but equality, tolerance and the wrongness of religious violence are slightly more taken for granted by more adherents to Christianity than Islam. This will change over time...

  Well, Christianity isn’t really a sociologically mature religion either, it has just been forced into submission by sheer reason by education and enlightenment. As Salman Rushdie observed, the Moslem countries completely lack a secular humanist population.

  Thanks,

  Norm
• 

  HoChiMin

  Norm,
  You asked:
  > "How many more innocent civilians will have to die before those who have the power to deal with the causes act?" <

  In my opinion they have acted, the only way to stop a movement like the Taliban terrorists is just what the US is doing.

  HCM
• 

  Norm

  Hello Englishman,

  I don't see any point in chiding America for retaliating so massively, and the British people are so much behind them that we are also sending in troops.
  In the UK we have encountered so much terrorism via the IRA that we have become a little blase about it.

  Wow!

  Maybe, if years ago the RAF had got the OK to fly over Belfast and Dublin with the bomb doors open, maybe we could have discouraged it.

  Sounds extremely considerate, Irish lives do not have much value, eh?

  As for the value of peoples lives, you must remember that Muslim fundies dont value anyones life very much, and that includes their own. Mind you, they will certainly milk their innocent casualty figures for all they are worth.
  Englishman.

  And that will of course justify all civilian casualties? How is it that it is apparently all right as long as Americans and English “retaliating so massively” when US and British citizens are killed, but when Muslim civilians is bombed it is fundies that “milk their innocent casualty figures for all they are worth.”? No “milking” going on in US and Britain, eh?

  Norm.
• 

  roybatty

  I wish I had more time to write a response but one thing I wanted to again mention. If I remember correctly, Israel has a population arond 6 million. About 1 - 2 million of these citizens are Muslims. These Muslims enjoy much more freedon in Israel then they would living in Jordan, Iraq, Syria or Iran. This to me speaks volumes.
• 

  expatbrit

  I pretty much agree with Abaddon's comments also. As for the Israel/Palestinian thing, any moral high ground in that region seems to be somewhere at the bottom of the Dead Sea.

  Seeker:

  I'm not sure if we agree or not. I think that it is a mistake to equate the Taleban and Al Quaeda with mainstream Islam, even though I'm not an admirer of Islam (or of any religion, for that matter). But I do think that they hate the freedoms that America represents. More specifically, they hate the threat to their own power contained within the existence of that freedom.

  After all, consider the reactions of the average person in Afghanistan/Iraq etc when they look at America. They see the material prosperity, nice houses and a shiny new car in the garage. They see the freedom to speak your mind without fear of death. Women see the freedom to simply live, have an education, a career, a lifestyle free of the constant attitude that they are inferior and a temptation to sin and damnation. It is natural for people to desire these things. The extremists know that given the chance, such values will spread to the areas under their control, and rob them of power. Hence they fear and hate the lifestyle America embodies.

  Norm:

  France does have the worst record in Islamic countries, which begs the question: if the terrorists actions were precipiatated by foreign policies of Western countries, why were those planes not flown into prominent Parisian buildings? France's current friendly relations are, quite frankly, due to the impotence of Europe and the extremist's conviction that they can basically commit any atrocities they like and the only response from Europe will be a pompous statement, beautifully worded and translated into 13 different languages.

  Other countries do also enjoy the sames freedoms as America. In some aspects, more so. Women have more opportunity for advancement in Scandinavian countries than the US. Based on my personal observations, people have more freedom to enjoy personal privacy in the UK than the US. But America is the top dog and the most capable nation of preserving those freedoms against the ambitions of Muslim fundamentalists. In this way, America represents freedom, and becomes the automatic target of those who thrive on a lack of freedom.

  Rex:

  Isn't the universe a strange place, where you and I can agree on something?

  Expatbrit
• 

  Flip

  Here's an article in the Atlantic written September 1990 concerning the history of Muslim rage. I found it interesting to read the article in light of 911.
  
  http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/90sep/rage.htm
• 

  TR

  Some think the only thing that'll stop the terrorism acts against the U.S. and Isreal is if we bend to the desires of the terrorists, and they simply want Israel off the map. Not gonna happen.

  "If only we understood why they hate us" seems to be the cry of the liberals. Well, I'm sorry, but "understanding" the terrorists ain't going to stop the terrorist fanatics.

  The U.S. has gone out of it's way to limit the number of civilian casualties in war. We've spent billions on developing smart weaponry just for that purpose. The days of carpet bombing cities is over. Even in WW2, there was a dispute between the U.S. and British command over styles of bombing. The British wanted to get back at the Germans for devastating their cities. The U.S., who never had cities devastated by foreign bombs, simply wanted to concentrate on military targets. Oil fields, factories, etc. Thus the daytime bombing we did.

  So, now that we have had many civilians killed on 9/11, btw, that was their main target, we still only want to go after military targets. We're even distributing aid and food. So cry on about civilian casualties Norm, your reasoning don't hold water.

  TR

  I'm gonna make mince meat outta that Osama!
• 

  sapo

  Hi Seeker,

  You said “They do not hate our freedom. As you say, what they hate is what America represents -- the present world power that stands in opposition to their ability to convert the world to Islam.”

  Then you said:
  “They do not hate our freedom, as much as Bush blathers on about that. We merely represent the latest in a long line of infidel powers that block them from their goal. ”

  By your own reasoning, I don’t see how freedom is not what is at issue here or how it can be construed as propaganda.
  If their goal is to get rid of the perceived super power that’s standing in their way of converting or ridding the world of infidels then it is freedom they are trying to conquer. If my choice as a citizen of the targeted nation is to convert to Islam or die then it is my freedom that’s in jeopardy—the freedom to choose my religion or have no religion along with a host of other’s since I’m a woman.

  Sapo