by SPAZnik 31 Replies latest jw friends
By the same token, couldn't ANY religion use the same argument to excuse their flaws and atrocities?
They are, after all, run by "imperfect" men as well. I guess that means they're ACTUALLY inspired of god too, but simply run by imperfect men who make mistakes.
Most religions do use that argument, but when you try to explain that to a JW they stop listening.
My father pulled that one a few days ago when I reminded him that the ancient worthies didn't show up in 1925.
He is never there to listen, so I doubt that he remembered anything I said, or asked, after the conversation/altercation/debacle.
I reminded him that these imperfect men throw people out of their congregations for not believing everything they say, even when they may be wrong, and that there is no scriptural precedent for meeting in secret to judge the guilt, innocence, or repentance of a member, anyway.
I stood my ground and dished it out until he hung up the phone on me.
Cheers
Chris
What you say is correct, every religion can use the same excuse.
The double speak is that on one hand they say excuse the mistakes because the men are imperfect, but on the other hand you must trust everything they say. The Feb 15 Watchtower 2009 even made the incredible comment "Jehovah God and Jesus Christ completely trust the Faithful and Discreet slave" For a scan see http://www.jwfacts.com/images/w-09-feb-15-p27.jpg
I reminded him that these imperfect men throw people out of their congregations for not believing everything they say, even when they may be wrong,
That is of course the whole key right there.
Out of one side of their mouth they admit they are imperfect, yet if anyone else points out their imperfection before they (are forced to) admit it, that person is unceremoniously cut off from all family and friends for "running ahead of Jehovah's chariot".
The Watchtower June 15, 2007, pages 26-3017 "This includes our being willing to obey directions from those who are taking the lead in true worship, though they are imperfect."
Jehovah's Witnesses always told me that they do not follow men, that they only follow Jehovah and Jesus. If Jehovah's Witnesses are to "obey" those who are "taking the lead", who are those "taking the lead" leading . . . and who did they "take" the lead from? The leaders are not "in" the lead, they "take" the lead.
If Jehovah's Witnesses are not following men, they can't be following the men taking the lead. So who is following those men taking the lead if not Jehovah's Witnesses? And why would Jehovah's Witnesses need to "obey" a man they are not following?
If they are imperfect men and make mistakes then they should be a bit more forgiving when people don't see things their way. Instead they retain strict policies that break up families and relationships. Its all nothing short of intimidation.
Also, they may be imperfect but they are not accountable. Let these men come out of their ivory tower and take responsibility for their actions. If they want to continue to promulgate their ideas as 100% fact then they should be willing to discuss things publicly, especially those who write the material. Instead they hide behind nameless articles.
this is a powerful argument because of the privileged JWcentric postion they reason from and carries a lot of weight with the rank and file. It is very hard to refute.
A while back Mr. Flipper had an excellent argument against the idea that "Jehovah will hold those within the organization accontable for their actions". His reply was that Jehovah may just do that, but the Watchtower Society never will.
I think it all comes down to a matter of checks and balances. The WTS is structured in such a way so that leaders within the movement are never held accountable for their actions. They can do and say whatever they please and that is the final word. Because individual members hold no influence whatsoever within the movement the idea that "its just imprefect men" is nonsense. Those "imperfect men" have no motiviation to do what is in the best interest of the members because they are not accountable to them.
The Nazis were imperfect men. Bottom line, calling something evil imperfect is false humility which is in itself a form of arrogance. The WTS is not "imperfect" it is depraved.
Many people rightly reject this argument, but it's difficult to precisely say why this must be false.
It's dangerous to accept Progressive Revalation and Religious Authority since the combination a fortiori creates a non-falsifiable belief system.
I am working on a formal philosophical paper intended for use in applying to graduate school which is called
"The Argument From the Failure of Religious Authority" (AFFRA) (Copyright 2009, lol)
This argument establishes a strong case that if the traditional theistic God were to exist it would be impossible for him to have an imperfect human authority. Also, if such an authority were to make an authority claim, then one of the following disjuncts must be true
God is not all-powerful or
God is not fully rational or
God does not strongly desire true beliefs to be propagated about him
God exists but the theism which entails the authority claim is false
It will make a strong case against JW's, Catholicism and any other theism which entails a human Religious Authority.
