WBTS -A MODERN-DAY 'NAZI PARTY'??

by Scott77 43 Replies latest jw friends

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Lady Lee,

    You make a good case, summing it up that way. Maybe the JWs are caught between being 'emotionally numbed' and 'ignorant' of how the leadership manipulates them. I suppose I was thinking more of their ignorance, and that if they were only 'aware' they might turn away from the organization ... but, you have effectively reminded me of how 'emotionally numb' the JWs have (been or become), and how they are capable of standing by and tolerating abuse ... it makes me shutter to think that I was ever part of such lunacy. Thanks for bringing it all into focus.

  • villabolo
    villabolo

    Inkling, the wiki article on Godwins Law states in part: "The rule does not make any statement about whether any particular reference or comparison to Adolf Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that one arising is increasingly probable"

    In other words the sum total of humanity, having a tendency to exagerate does not mean that some of them are not right on in applying the Nazi comparison. Remember the Mormons in the 19th century. They killed their apostates.

    Amazing, I was pretty precise about stating that JWs would not do any thing unless they had the power and SOVEREIGN TERRITORY. As far as far as claiming that only a few JWs would support such atrocities pray tell what makes JWs different than German civilians of WWII?

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    Amazing I felt sick after posting that. The truly sad thing is that there is such a long history of the WTS mind-controlling and emotionally numbing of JWs.

    I remember when the Malawi "persecution" happened. I was grieved by it. But the WTS made very clear that it would one day be ME. We tolerated it because we were told that the scriptures prophesied it. That we would be blessed to be persecuted for the truth.

    We sat and watched people we knew die and praised them for their faithfulness in refusing blood or transplants. We praised them!

    Death in these cases was a reward. Surely they would come back in the resurrection.

    I vividly remember the grip of fear that my baby might need a blood transfusion and I might have to make that sacrifice not for Jehovah but for "the truth"

    Waht a blessing to be tested in such a way.

    SICK just sick sick sick cult that has the power of life and death mentally, physically, emotionally and spiritually of so many people

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Lady Lee,

    This does bring into question the early Christian willingness to be persecuted by the Romans for their stand over various issues. St. Ignatius, who was a student of the Apostle John, groomed by the Apostle Peter to bew the Bishop of Antioch, and a personal friend of the Apostle Paul, wrote about his privilege to be persecuted under Caesar Tiberius ... St. Ignatius wrote his letters as he was being carted off to Rome to die at the mouth of lions.

    Do you think there is any difference between what the early Christians were willing to suffer and what the JWs are willing to suffer? Or, perhaps were the early Christians also a bit luny?

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    That is an interesting question. I suppose for many religions, including the non-Christian ones, there is an element of self-sacrifice that goes with the program. Honor and self-sacrifice for the cause. I suspect that to a certain degree it was a personal choice - a real personal choice unlike the WT version of it.

    Cults make self-sacrifice a requirement for all members. It is institutionalized. If one doesn't follow the program, then they are percieved as the enemy.

    Certainly earliest Christians were a lot closer to the example of Christ himself, either having known him, seen him preach or seen his direct followers. But Christ didn't demand they all get killed with him

    I think it might boil down to why a person is doing it. Sometimes it is just the right thing to do. A parent who puts themself in the way of danger to protect their child? Police, soldiers, firemen who put their lives in danger for the greater good? Self-sacrifice for sure.

    A person sacrificing themself for a belief, a concept? I'm not sure where that line is

  • garybuss
    garybuss

    FASCISM VS THEOCRACY


    THEOCRACY: God Rule
    (Paradise Restored To Mankind By Theocracy, Watch Tower Bible And Tract Society of New York, Inc., 1972, p.13)
    FASCISM
    Fascism
    , philosophy of government that glorifies the nation-state at the expense of the individual. Major concepts of fascism include opposition to democratic and socialist movements; racist ideologies, such as ANTI-SEMITISM; aggressive military policy; and belief in an authoritarian leader who embodies the ideals of the nation.
    (The Concise Columbia Encyclopedia, 1995)


    FASCISM, is a form of government headed, in most cases, by a dictator. It involves total government control of political, economic, cultural, religious, and social activities. (The World Book Encyclopedia, Vol. 7, 1979,p.52-54)

    The Watch Tower Society claims it is a Theocracy form of government. Ruled from the top [God] down by [using] a dictatorial committee [Governing Body]. It involves total control of: political activity of members by prohibiting membership in [other] political parties and voting in general elections; cultural intercourse by discouraging artists, musicians, and athletics; religious freedom by ostracism of members who seek outside religious association; and social activities by strongly discouraging members from associating with anyone not approved by the group leaders.
    Fascism resembles Communism. But unlike Communism, which calls for the government to own all industry, fascism allows industry to remain in private ownership, though under government control. Other important features of fascism include extreme patriotism, warlike policies, and persecution of minorities. (ibid.)
    The Watch Tower Society [The Theocracy] resembles Communism. But unlike Communism, The Theocracy allows members to own private business, though under Theocracy "suggestions and guidelines" plus all group member workers must follow "Society directives" (Pay Attention To Yourselves And To All The Flock, p.138). Other important features of The Theocracy include extreme loyalty to the Dictatorial Committee [Governing Body], warlike policies, e.g. Theocratic War Strategy, and hatred of perceived enemies [often dissenting former group members].
    Political Life.
    In most cases, fascists have come to power after a nation has suffered an economic collapse, a military defeat, or some other disaster. The fascist party wins mass support by promising to revive the economy and to restore national pride. The fascists may also appeal to a fear of Communism or a hatred of Jews and other minorities. Eventually, the fascists may gain control of the government?through peaceful elections or by force. (ibid.)
    The Theocracy came to power after World War I and after the death of it's charismatic leader and founder, Charles Taze Russell. The Theocracy won support by: identifying a perceived enemy, including all [other] governments, all [other] big business, and all [other] religion, especially the Catholic religion; providing a clear definition of "the problem" and offering an absolute solution; and by claiming an exclusive way to the ideal condition, e.g. heaven, new world, perfect body, etc. The Theocracy appealed to those with a fear of communism and a hatred for the Catholics and other religions.
    After the fascist party takes power, its members replace the men and women in the executive, judicial, and legislative branches of the government. In most cases, one individual?usually a dictator with great popular appeal?becomes the leader of the government. Sometimes, a committee of party members holds the government leadership. Fascists permit no other political party and no opposition to their policies. (ibid)
    After The Theocracy [Joseph Rutherford] took power, it's members took the Watch Tower Society's leadership positions as executive, judicial, and legislative branches of the organization. After a brief intra-Society power struggle, Joseph Franklin Rutherford emerged as the clear leader. Today the leadership is a dictatorial committee called, "The Governing Body" made up of members who have proven their loyalty to the system installed largely by Rutherford. The Theocracy permits no other political party and no opposition to their policies.

    The fascist desire for national glory leads to an increase in military spirit and a build-up of the armed forces. After the military forces become strong enough, they may invade and occupy other countries. (ibid)
    The Theocracy considers itself to be in "Theocratic Warfare" and "publishers" are seen as theocratic soldiers fighting a "spiritual battle". Congregations, in recent history, were known as "companies". Members are referred to as the "rank and file". Numbers of spiritual soldiers [publishers] are seen as proof of divine direction and the armies have advanced upon every country in the world.
    Economic Life. A fascist government permits and even encourages private enterprise?as long as such activity serves the government's goals. However, the government maintains strict control of industry to make sure it produces what the nation needs. The government discourages imports by putting high tariffs on certain essential products or by banning imports of those products. It does not want to depend on other countries for such vital products as oil and steel. (ibid)
    The Theocracy form of government of The Watch Tower Society permits and even encourages private enterprise to a degree?as long as such activity serves the government's goals. However, The Theocracy maintains strict control of member owned industry to make sure it produces what the Society needs. The Society discourages member's buying and reading independent Bible commentaries and other products not produced by the Theocracy's factories. It does not want to depend on [other] business to produce reading and research material for the "rank and file".
    The government also forbids strikes so that production will not be interrupted. Fascism outlaws labor unions and replaces them with a network of organizations in the major industries. These organizations, which consist of both workers and employers, are called corporations, but they differ from those in other countries. Fascist corporations supposedly represent both labor and management but actually are controlled by the government. Through the corporations, the government determines wages, hours, and production goals. As a result, a fascist country is sometimes called a corporative state. (ibid)
    The Theocracy uses guilt and fear to keep members from taking vacations [silent strikes] from "service" [fundraising and recruiting]. The Society has installed it's own network of organization guidelines and directives as well as the necessary enforcement representatives in the member's lives. Individual congregations, as well as every facet of the group member's life, are controlled by the Theocratic government and it's official representatives. Through the individual congregations, the Theocracy government determines member's privileges, schedules their required activities, and reinforces their Theocratic goals.

    Personal Liberty is severely limited under a fascist government. For example, the government limits travel to other countries and restricts any contact with their people. The government also controls the newspapers, radio, and other means of communication in its country. It issues propaganda to promote its policies, and it practices strict censorship to silence opposing views. All children are required to join youth organizations, where they exercise, march, and learn fascist beliefs. A secret police force crushes any resistance. Opposition may lead to imprisonment, torture, and death. (ibid)
    Personal liberty is severely limited under The Watch Tower Society's Theocratic government. For example, the government limits association with [other] churches and discourages any personal contact with their people. The Theocratic government also controls the information it's members have access to. It issues it's own propaganda to promote it's policies, and it practices strict censorship to silence opposing views, ostracizing members who admit to reading information critical of the Society. All children are intimidated to begin service and silent meeting attendance at an early age by parents who will not be eligible for privileges [unpaid group jobs] unless children comply. Children of privileged adults are required to learn Theocratic beliefs and to behave as though they accept these as fact, sometimes as a condition for them to remain a resident of the family home. A structured enforcement system exists to guarantee enforced compliance with the dictatorial committee's directives, including convention "attendants" [private police], organizationally directed as well as freelance surveillance of group members, and the powerful "elder arrangement", which judges members compliance to the "directives" in secret trials called "judicial committee meetings", where the leadership selected, all male panel issues summonses, hears witness testimony, reads charges, determines innocence or guilt, and passes sentence on the accused. Often the sentence is a "disfellowshiping order", under which members in good standing are required to snub and shun errant members even if they are relatives.

    Fascists consider all other peoples inferior to those of their own nationality group. As a result, a fascist government may persecute or even kill Gypsies, Jews, or members of other minority groups. (ibid)
    The Theocracy considers all [other] business, government, and religion inferior to their own and operated for the benefit of the power of evil. As a result the Theocratic government of the Watch Tower Society may persecute by ostracism members and leaders of opposing [all] business, political, governmental, and religious institutions [organizations], including shunning, snubbing, and verbal as well as printed attacks and public name calling. (Chaplinsky V. New Hampshire, 315 U.S. 58)

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Lady Lee,

    Personal choice ... exactly ... yes, that is a good way to draw the line ... not threat of being DF'd for eating a piece of B-Day cake because the Orgnaization says so. Jesus acted on choice as did any follower ... even St. Peter when he denied Christ. The Church, as St. Ignatius spoke of it, was not requiring him to be a martyr ... he made a personal choice.

    PS: I stated that St. Ignatius was persecuted by Tiberius ... it was actually Roman Emperor Trajan.

    Thanks

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    very interesting comparisons Gary

    At what point does personal choice cross the line into groupthink?

    I'm going to preface this with a few personal comments (knowing full well not everyone is like me)

    My early life was as a non-JW but it was an extremely abusive home. I grew up in an environment of fear. My mother got involved with the JWs when I was a young teen. I got baptized when I was 17. Married at 18 and had a controlling abusive marriage for 15 years. I constantly lived in an environment of abuse, control and fear for the first 34 years of my life. The only time I almost faltered as an obedient JW was when the blood issue came up with my daughter. But I knew that the final decision for that would not be in my hands.

    It took a real crisis in my life for me to make my first true personal choice. That decision was based on fear. The fear that I would commit suicide and be DEAD was greater than the fear of anything my husband, mother or elders could do to me. I didn't know what was ahead but it had to better than all those years or abuse and fear.

    I suspect that for many people their decision to leave a cult isn't a life and death one as mine was. But I think there is some personal crisis, a moral crisis, an ethical one. Perhaps just an accumulation of things that moves a person to consider leaving; that leaving is better than staying.

    Earlier you made this comment

    But, I have to believe that if the Watchtower Society were to start to seriously engage in atrocities, that they would lose a majority of JWs ... if for no other reason than they at least have a way to escape.

    Perhaps if the WTS did ask people to engage in serious atrocities many JWs would leave. But Jim Jones had all his followers drink the Kool-aid. He wasn't the first and he hasn't been the last.

    Would JWs refuse to drink?

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Lady Lee,

    My earlier expressed confidence in the JWs stems from a sense of humanity, and faith in the goodness and ratinality of the majority. I have to feel that way, because I shutter to think that I was among them, and would hope that I would not have go along with them into serious atrocities.

    Your cool-aid comment, however, brings back two thoughts:

    1. The Jone cult were largely trapped. They drank because they were up against being shot by men armed with automatic assult rifles. I would like to see how many would have openly left, if they had been given a choice to drink or leave. However, many did drink the cool aid as willing believers.

    2. I recall a young JW man whom I knew from when he was just a boy. He gave an Instruction (No.1) talk which I still recall over 20-years later ... and it was a haunting talk. He spoke of being in a group and following man in a way that smacked like that of a cult. Had he asked the question, I was prepared to answer that he was speaking of Jim Jones or other similar group. He did ask, but rhetorically ... and then answered the question by showing how the leader and the group were non other than Jesus and his disciples. It was stunningly effective ... and then he applied it to the JWs. His goal was to show how the world sees JWs as a cult, but because we are like the early Christians, we can be confident in following Christ.

    Today, of course, I have returned to my traditional understanding of Jesus, and as such do not accept that he was a cult leader. The comparisons to Christ that the young JW man made were false. But what sticks with me is how he managed to connect it to the JWs. He did so in a way that made the JWs come out on top ... but I do wonder if he held private concerns about the JWs and was using the opportunity to safely express those concerns.

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    Good point about the Jones cult. I didn't remember that part.

    Your second point is very interesting. This is exactly how they create the myth that they are chosen. It is said you can take any set of facts and make them appear to be something they are not.

    I think this is true of most cults. There is just enough fact in them to make their belief seem true. I'll bet parts of that talk were used a lot to convince people they really had the truth; they were really following Christ.

    Like you I want to believe that there is a smidgen of humanity in most JWs. I know my mother would be one of the first to cast the first stone at any of her children. But she isn't typical of most JWs or mothers for that matter.

    Five years after I left I approached one of the elders on my JC to ask about reinstatement. I had always viewed him as a loving father figure. And that is what I expected to see when I went to his home.

    Instead I got this cold, angry man who lied to my face. I was stunned and thought I was just misreading him.

    Then I went to a meeting and watched while he arranged for my ex-husband to take the place of the WT reader for the day. He even announced the change to make sure I would know. So I sat there and watched my abusive ex-husband sit in a place of honor and read the WT while his new wife sat glaring at me from behind.

    That was it for me. I was never going back. In reality they did me a favor.

    I would hope some would behave better than that. I would hope that some would not follow the WTS when it came right down to them personally having to take action.

    But as long as JWs believe that young man on the platform I think I would run if they were ordered to come after me.

    Would I have followed them? I hope I would not. I was never tested to that degree. I know that thoughts of signing the papers for blood for my baby and telling the Drs to do it before my husband showed up were dancing in my head. But I can't say for sure that I would have done it and risked the wrath of my husband and the elders.

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