Question for Any current Elders or recently departed elders

by geevee 20 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  geevee

  Hi All,

  I have been asked about a situation in which a former witnesses ladies now ex-husband has been caught exposing himself, and this has gone on for at least 15 years. He has also exposed himself to some close family members. The question relates to the WT explaination of "porniea". This is obvoiusly beyond masturbation. Whilst I am not sure if the victim actually touched or was force to touch him, it could be argued that there was another person involved willingly or unwillingly. While I have pdf copies of the ks91 and a word document copy that includes my notes, I have been out of the system for over 4 years now and it may not be up to date.

  What [in the wt mind] constitutes porniea?

  Thanks in advance........... It is not much fun trying to link back to that mind set!
• 

  GromitSK

  Why are you bothering?
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  geevee

  Hi, Fair point...why are you bothering. This woman wants to be able to satisfy her jw family that she has been wronged, and wants to be able to justify, using jw logic that she is able to move on with her life. She would like to be able to do that with the possibility of being able to still speak to any of her family that might still want to talk and have contact with her.

  I know it is twisted, but then that is what happens after you have been in and are moving away from this destructive sect/cult.
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  OnTheWayOut

  This woman wants to be able to satisfy her jw family that she has been wronged, and wants to be able to justify, using jw logic that she is able to move on with her life.

  Just say that he refuses to get help and she must leave him for safety. Later, just say he has been unfaithful.
  Just say it and say you have no details. Just say it. If you think about it, that's all true.
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  geevee

  Thanks, I did say to her that I think that as far as I can remember it sounds like it could be argued in her favor. Like you say, just say it is so, and it is.
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  Billy the Ex-Bethelite

  Technically, it doesn't sound like porneia, more questions would need to be answered... rather nasty questions.

  It would certainly qualify as "uncleanness" and "loose conduct", both of which would be grounds for DF if he's a dub.

  Exposing himself to close family members would qualify as 'spiritual danger', I believe. And certainly reproachful.

  The whole thing is very open to interpretation. Bottom line, the dude is sick.

  B the X
• 

  geevee

  B the exB, Thanks for the input. Open to interpretation, certainly. Spiritual danger.... that's a good line that I will suggest to her. So technical, so much rubbish.

  Yes the ex needs much help. He is getting "spiritual" help from the cong.... that's good to know, it is sure to help..... NOT! See a professional, I doubt it.
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  jamiebowers

  Things may have changed in the last 20 years, but when I was still in, the divorcing spouse had to prove adultery on the part of the spouse who was being left in order to be free to remarry. In my case, my mentally ill jw husband was forcibly committed to a mental hospital by a judge, because his psychiatrist testified that he was a danger to me and himself. Despite that, I was required to follow the WB&TS rule. When I refused, because I didn't want him to influence my life for one more single second, I offered to da myself. The elders said not to bother, because they would df me instead. And they did. I've been shunned by my family ever since. Unfortunately, I didn't even know about fading.

  If being able to move on with her life is the same as being free to remarry, I doubt she has grounds approved by the WB&TS.
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  GromitSK

  Hi Geevee.

  I guess whether she will be able to keep contact will depend on why the JWs think she lost contact with them. If she is DFd or DAd then I guess the only way to be sure is to get reinstated. If she doesn't then strictly I suppose she will be shunned. It seems to me that the non-contact element varies from cong to cong. A friend of mine who DAs manyyears ago still chats to JWs who work in the local shops when they cross paths.

  If the suggestion is that she left the JWs because her hubbie was up to no good then I presume she is saying that she still accepts their teachings and I wonder why she isn't getting reinstated? If she doesn't accept their teachings and wants to get reinstated so that she can maintain contact with family and friends I guess I can understand that, though personally I think it's a waste of energy and potentially damaging to her self-esteem.

  It's probably me being dumb but I am not sure how proving porneia will help her at all if she wants to stay out of the dubs but maintain contact.
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  winstonchurchill

  Elder here!

  as per WTS, Porneia = imporper use of (at least) one person's genitalia. There has to be another person (or an animal) involved. There has to be manipulation (not just casual touch). By 'improper' they mean someone who is not you spouse; tehrefore, Porneia can only hapen out of the wedlock.

  Masturbation: Not Porneia (no other person)

  Oral/Anal/hand-job,etc.: Porneia

  Exposing: Not porneia

  While this seems pretty straight and logic, it leaves big gaps and inconsitencies. For example a regular guy can be df'd for fooling with his fiancee's privates, while the perv exposing himself to kids gets to walk.

  Any 'legal' system that leaves room for uneven punishments is conceptually flawed.

  So as per this policy, nope, she's not free to remarry. Again, Why does she care? She should do what OnTheWayOut suggested.