As witnesses we were taught it was meant an invisible presence, i wondered what the scholars here thought of this verse now?
Paul
Matthew 24:3 and parousia, what does it mean?
by digderidoo 7 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Chalam
Hi Paul,
OK let's see
Matthew 24:3 (New International Version)
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
First of all, what happens at the "end of the age"?
Jesus explains what will happen at that time
Matthew 13:37-43 (New International Version)
37 He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40 "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
So the end of the age is to do with judgement day. Those saved go to the New Jerusalem Revelation 21 or the unsaved to the second death Revelation 20
The WT teaches that Christ has returned but that is contrary to what Jesus has said about His return i.e. it is judgment day. Here is another knock back for the WT and their deception.
2 Thessalonians 2 (New International Version)
The Man of Lawlessness
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. So important questions here? Who is the "man of lawlessness"? He is mentioned here Daniel 7:25, Daniel 8:25, Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:5-6 also. the main thing is what he does. See those verses and verse 4 above He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. So he clearly isn't around yet? It is likely that God's temple will be a rebuild temple in Jerusalem Third Temple and the man of lawlessness/son of perdition/anti-christ will set himself up in there, exalting himself over God or anything else that is called god and proclaim himself as God. This is the "abomination that causes desolation" Daniel 9:27 Daniel 11:31 Daniel 12:11 Matthew 24:15 Mark 13:14 Lastly regarding the greek word for coming or presence, see the other verse where it is used and decide for yourself if it is a physical or non-physical presence παρουσ?α (parousia) − 15 Occurrences All the best, Stephen -
Narkissos
To stick to the Matthean context, it's worth noting the recurrences of the question keywords (sèmeion and parousia, the latter being specific of Matthew's version) in the answer:
V. 23ff. Then if anyone says to you, 'Look! Here is the Messiah!' or 'There he is!'--do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs(sèmeia) and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. Take note, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, 'Look! He is in the wilderness,' do not go out. If they say, 'Look! He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming(parousia) of the Son of Man.
V. 30: Then the sign(sèmeion) of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see 'the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven' with power and great glory.
V. 36ff: But about that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. For as the days of Noah were, so will be the coming(parousia) of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark, and they knew nothing until the flood came and swept them all away, so too will be the coming(parousia) of the Son of Man. Then two will be in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. Two women will be grinding meal together; one will be taken and one will be left. Keep awake therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.
Global visibility and suddenness (day and hour) are very much a part of the parousia in this scenario.
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VM44
The Watchtower for a very long time (over a hundred years?) has said that Jesus' presence would be seen with "eyes of understanding"
I would like to know where this "eyes of understanding" idea came from. It does not appear to be mentioned in the Bible!
Again, I've said it before, The Watchtower simply makes things up.
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hamsterbait
Jesus is actually saying there would be no sign but that his return would happen suddenly and unexpectedly - the only sign would be the sign of the son of man at the very end.
Why would he give so many examples of unexpected suddenness in the chapter if he was saying his disciples could anticipate it. Under current WT noolite these verses were addressed only to his annointed followers - so why are the Watchtower annointed constantly saying they know how near it is?
Jesus tells them NOT to be MISLEAD by wars famines eathquakes and pestilences - "the end IS NOT YET"
The more I read the gospels the more I realise how they have twisted this passage and turned it on its head.
In any case if as the "Proclaimers Book" says (p136) that they realised that Christ did not return "even invisibly" to the vicinity of the Earth, how can he be present (invisibly or otherwise) in the sense of the greek word??
HB
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Narkissos
VM: maybe the "eyes of the heart" in Ephesians 1:18... (it's all good in kangaroo context, skip skip)
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hamsterbait
Matt 24:23 appears to have its current WT slant as a resulting hangover from "Studies in the Scriptures" Series 2 "The Time is at Hand " (Luke 21: 8 anyone???!)
Page 160 "The Manner of the Second Advent":
Verses 23 - 26 contain words of warning against false Christs, and in verse 27 he reaches their question regarding his parousia and declares [properly translated] "As the bright shining [the sunlight] cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west, so shall the presence[parousia] of the Son of man be." The sunlight becomes present instantly, yet noiselessly; and it is first discerned by those who are first awake.
Leaving other intermediate features of our Lord's discourse [...] we note his second reference to their question regarding his parousia in vv. 37 and 39. He says: "As the days of Noah so shall also the parousia[presence] of the Son of man be." Notice that the comparison is not between the COMING of Noah and the COMING of our Lord, nor between the COMING of the flood and the COMING of our Lord. The coming of Noah is not referred to at all; neither is the coming of our Lord referred to; for as already stated parousia does not mean coming but PRESENCE. The contrast then is between the time of Noah among the people "BEFORE the flood " and the time of the presence of Christ in the world, at his second advent, before the fire - the extreme trouble of the Day of the Lord with which this age ends.
p 165:
" If any should say unto you [...] behold he is in the secret chambers, believe it not; for as the bright shining sunlight, which gradually dawns and fills the earth, so shall his presence be." It will be manifested as foretold, by the dawning new light of truth - truth on every subject, as we see it now gloriously unfolding. A few years more, and the sun of righteousness will have fully risen with healing in its beams."
p 155: " Our Lord furnished us a most beautiful illustration of the manner in which his presence will be revealed... Matt 24: 27 ... That most translations of this verse are faulty in using the word lightning, where sunlight is meant, is evident; for lightning flashes do not come out of the east and shine unto the west. They just as frequently come from other quarters, and rarely, if ever flash clear across the Heavens. The Lord's illustration, and the only one which will comport with his words, is the sun's brightness, which does invariably emerge from the east and shine even unto the west." ( on the use of the word ASTRAPE also used in Lu 17:24; 11: 36;
The chapter "proves that Jesus is PERSONALLY present, though invisible. A far cry from the Proclaimers Book p 36, which claims that the Bible Students discerned that Christ did not return "even invisibly" to the earth at his "parousia".
pp 156 - 157 are especially interesting for the diversionary arguments, making a straw man of the Spiritualists, to draw attention away from the other distortions.
My copy is the 1889 edition.
HB
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Mary
I would like to know where this "eyes of understanding" idea came from. It does not appear to be mentioned in the Bible!
Here's one of the Fun With Covers I did a long time ago.....I believe it should answer your question: