Need help: JW friend links every NT teaching to 144,000 only

by whyizit 13 Replies latest forum announcements

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  whyizit

  You know what I mean: Every time she reads a passage in the NT, she instantly applies it to the 144,000 chosen anointed ones. Even though there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to make that connection. I have even asked how her gurus have made that connection BIBLICALLY. She admits that she can't really tell me BIBLICALLY, because you just have to study everything JWs teach and then it becomes so apparent.....

  I truly think if I could somehow come up with something she could understand, that would just be glaring about how ridiculous it is to think that the 144,000 in Rev. are the ones spoken to in the NT, that it might break through the mind control. That is the concept that keeps her tied down. Nothing else seems to matter, we just keep coming back to that.

  I can't really find anything that deals directly with that problem. Someone who is so tied up in the anointed, chosen, holy ones of the NT being the 144,000. Yes, they deal with a lot of other aspects. But I can't seem to get those to make sense, without dealing first with the fact that the ones spoken to in the NT just might be CHRISTIANS who follow Christ in general, and not an elite group of special Christians.

  I was hoping someone might be able to send me some ideas to help address this. Also, she is wanting to talk to me about the 1914 issue (when Jesus returned and only the JWs knew it). I have a lot of info. on that as well, but was wondering if you have any really good things I could ask.

  Thanks for any help you can give me!

  Whyizit (so frustrating!) But I knew that it would be going in!
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  isaacaustin

  Then where is she mentioned in the Bible? Roamns 8 may be a good chapter. You are either 'in union with Christ" - NWT or not. There is not third option. If "in union" you are annointed. If not, death and godlessness follows.
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  sspo

  Ask her why is it that every number used in Rev. is a symbolic one except the 144k?

  Why is it that Jesus and the apostles never mentioned that number and why is it that they

  never mentioned about living on earth as the main hope for mankind.

  Jesus mentioned in John 10 about the other "sheep" and as time went on it was made clear

  they were the Gentiles that accepted Jesus and not the great crowd found in Rev.

  Good luck in dealing with them.

  It's so much easier reasoning with a mule than trying to reason with a JW.

  Was one for 32 years
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  snowbird

  This got me to thinking:

  John 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, [c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

  Note it doesn't say to all 144,000 who received Him, it just says to all.

  Sylvia
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  allelsefails

  For me the most compelling response I have used is to center on the 1918-1919 "selection" of the FDS. Ask her to show you what teaching unique to JWs was "proper food" being dispensed in 1918. I use 9 points all central doctrinal things.

  1 The "Last Days" started in 1799 and the 1800’s were the worst time period of all history

  2 That Jesus had begun ruling in 1874

  3 That the end was going to come in 1925

  4 That Jesus should be prayed to and worshipped as well as Jehovah

  5 That the Great Crowd were a heavenly class

  6 That birthdays and Christmas were acceptable celebrations and displaying the flag was acceptable

  7 Society used symbols and ideas from pyramidology and astrology especially in support of 1914

  8 Strong Zionist support for a new nation of Israel in fulfilment of Bible prophecy

  9 That the Faithful and Discreet Slave was not the anointed, but rather Pastor Russell

  It would be way too long to put all the WT pub. quotes with each point, but I do have a word doc (7 pages) with 2-5 quotes for every above mentioned point. The thing I like about this approach is that no one can say it is apostate to quote Russell and Rutherford - even though they would both be apostates if they were around today. These quotes require no explanation they are up-front blatantly wrong according to JWs today. So If Jesus did not select them in 1918 then they have not been appointed over all his belongings and have no real authority. I find it easier to get someone to listen if you don't attack the individuals in the GB, but just undermine their claim to authority. Some will listen, most cannot.

  PM me if anyone would like to be sent a copy of my research. Like I said it is just WT quotes, nothing original (most plagerized), but I would love to share.

  You can't refute the idea of applying NT scrips to 144k unless the GBs authority is in question.

  Thanks for your post. "Good luck " on helping your friend (Am I allowed to say that now?).
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  Chalam

  Hi,

  I think you have hit the nail on the head. The "little flock" teaching is to stop the masses from believing the bible is written for them.

  For me, as a born again believer the bible says that the promises God made to Israel are mine too, not the other way round!

  Notice here that once again there is one flock, one body, one household, not two. The Gentiles who believe are united with the Jews who believe in Christ.

  Ephesians 2:11-22 (New International Version)

  One in Christ

  11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

  14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

  19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

  All the best, Stephen
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  garybuss

  The only possible way to look at the Bible with a Watch Tower Witness is with the book closed. Look at the history of the book and the assumptions used to form the opinions of the book. Look at superstition, ritual, and tradition and how those are used to manipulate vulnerable people.
  
  As a side bar: I like friends who are rational, intelligent, and educated. No Jehovah's Witness I know fits that profile. Get a better grade of friends and life will be better. Don't waste time trying to educate an idiot.
  
  
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  Albert Einstein

  Two different groups of Jesuses folowers?

  Separate hope for the two groups?

  Diferent instructions for the two groups?

  And following the right instructions is a matter of death or life?

  Dont you think, if this was the case, Jesus would be much more clear about that?

  By the way: 144 000 ...

  In 1935 we had over 50.000, they all are dead today... still 10.000 partaking today (the number has been increasing ... so more yet to be anounted, right?) ... so there were only some 80.000 christians in the first century from Jerosalem to Rome (they all werte anointed, right?) ? Historians write about many hundreds of thousands christians by the end of the first century ... maybe even a million christians ...

  So what does you friend thinks abou the numbers??

  Albert
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  diademadonai81

  dear allelsefails,

  i wud love to have that word document that u have.....

  can u also give me a list of different editions of kingdom interlinears and NWT Bibles they have.....

  because each time they have a different word somewhere......

  i too have a beautiful friend who is a JW....I will do what i am called to do..be the light...

  thankyou
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  allelsefails

  diademadonai81 - Message me with an e-mail address and I can send the word doc. Or I can copy it into a message on the board, but the formatting gets screwed up when I do that. Either way is fine. PS - I saw this is your first post. You can send private messages by clicking on the persons name to see their info screen and then click on "send message". The top right corner of your screen there is a little envelope that you can click on to get messages that have been sent to you. Would love to share the research I've done.