JW friend wants to tell me about Christ's return in 1914....Advice needed!

by whyizit 16 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  whyizit

  My long time friend recently took the plunge (baptized) and is now trying to recruit me. One of the first things she told me is how all the "other religions" should be carefully inspected, because they are all wrong, in a nut shell. So, I asked the obvious: I'm not concerned with all the others, I'm here to talk about YOUR'S. You keep mentioneing these fellows on the GB, who are they? No answer. How many are there? Doesn't know. How were they "elected"? By Jehovah, of course. They have to be anointed. There was a Pres. and now there is a GB. Why did that happen? Wo changed it from a Pres. to a GB? Do they concult the other anointed ones when making decisions?

  For the past several weeks, I asked the same questions, thinking it is wise to know about the leaders of an Org., as SHE suggested! But NO answers! No info.! What is up with THAT?!

  Now, she insists that she will get me the info., but she really thinks things will fall in place if I just hear about how Christ returned in 1914. It's all in Daniel. Hmmmm.... a LONG time ago she gave me the 5th Chapter of a Book (Proclaimer's) that stated the founder of the JWs proclaimed the return of Christ occurred in 1874.....and this was proclaimed as a fact for over 30 yrs., I believe! That chapter stated Russell proclaimed that as the LORD's truth, not his own. Did Jehovah screw up the date for His own Son's return? What did Jesus think when He returned and found the JWs proclaiming He already returned in 1874???

  These are the obvious questions. But you know what? You all know the schpeel she is going to feed me, you know the questions I am going to have, and you know most likely what kind of BS she is going to feed me. If you could suggest what is going to happen and effective ways to respond, I would love the advice. I don't want to be mean and nasty. I want her to start thinking about some of this. No need to be insulting or sarcastic. Just ask innocent questions that she never thought of before. (Not what is in the JW sales book: Reasoning Away The Scriptures.)

  Thanks for any advice you have!

  Whyizit
• 

  mouthy

  Well every year they celebrate the memorial .Jesus said "DO THIS UNTIL I RETURN"

  If he came back in 1914 Why are they still doing it??? Was my question.
  So they kicked me out
• 

  villabolo

  It's probably too late to tell her anything because of her recent baptism. She will interpret anything you have to say as a Satanic attack on her faith. In fact the WBTS stresses that these attacks happen right after baptism. However, if you want to give it a shot I would recommend giving her the book The Gentile Times Reconsidered by Carl O. Jonsson. This is absolutely the best book on the subject.

  On the other hand you may want to consider not handing her the book but becoming familiar with its arguments and discussing it with her.
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  sspo

  Just google 607-1914

  Just ask her to prove to you that Jerusalem fell in 607 bce without using the watchtower chronology.

  Remind her that no historian agrees with the watchtower with that 607 date.
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  Chalam

  Hi whyizit,

  Mouthy's question should be enough to answer them :)

  Get used to "no answers" :( Also, get used to irrelevant or nonsensical answers :(

  Read this chapter carefully and you should have enough questions to get similar answers from them Matthew 24

  More clues here Acts 1:11 Revelation 22

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  garybuss

  Deal with this.

  
  Proclaimers chap. 10 p. 137 Growing in Accurate Knowledge of the Truth
  As the events following 1914 began to unfold and the Bible Students compared these with what the Master had foretold, they gradually came to appreciate that they were living in the last days of the old system and that they had been since 1914. They also came to understand that it was in the year 1914 that Christ's invisible presence had begun and that this was, not by his personally returning (even invisibly) to the vicinity of the earth, but by his directing his attention toward the earth as ruling King.
• 

  diamondiiz

  607 is a clue. You will not be able to reason with her from other publication or you will have a very difficult time since WTS tells people that everything is satanic and is in opposition to God which they alone represent. Ask her if Russell was guided by spirit? She should say he was. Then follow by asking does she know what Charles Russell taught as to dates? Don't give her any answers but ask her what did Russell teach concerning start of last days? 1799 Ask her what he taught about return of Christ? 1874 She probably knows that one from proclaimers. Ask her about what Russell taught about when they will go to heaven? 1878,1881 1914. If Russell taught all these things how was God's spirit guiding him in those dates?

  Ask her why he used the pyramid of giza to point to 1914? If Russell was guided by God's spirit by using pyramid to support his dates why did Rutherford call pyramid of Giza as a Satan's tool?

  Why did Rutherford state that there was more proof in the bible of 1925 than that of 1914?

  Why did Rutherford build Beth Sarim (mansion for the resurrected ancients mentioned at Hebrews 11) and live there and drive cadillac while other servents worked for peanuts?

  Why did Rutherford build Beth Shan which contained 2 war bunkers during world war 2?

  Was Rutherford directed by God's spirit?

  You can ask about organ transplant and why they banned these only later to change their minds while people died. Was that directed by God? - She might answer that these people will get a resurrection - but was that done by God's spirit? Did God need sacrifices?

  What about Mexico? In the 60s Malawi witnesses were tortured and killed for not buying a political card but WTS doesn't tell a story of Mexican witnesses bribing officials to get army cards. Why in Mexico until late 1980s were the Kingdom Halls called Cultural Halls while other religions couldn't own property WTS did but under deception that they were not a religion! Where was God's guidance there?

  In the 1970s they pushed a date of 1975 as a very possibility of the end and encouraged people to sell properties and do all they could for 1975 was a special year and when nothing happened they blamed the followers for worshipping God only for a date and pushing the blame on the followers not themselves. Was there any indication of God's spirit guiding them in that?

  Why in 1990 they joined NGO which is a bronch of UN? WT calls UN an image of Satan's governments and yet by their membership as an NGO they were supporting UN charter for 10 years and only disassociated themselves after UK Guardian newspaper revealed their connection. Where was God's direction in that matter?

  In 2007 they paid out millions to pedophile victims who they faught in courts for several years and only paid them out prior to the court trial. If they were innocent why didn't they fight it to the end as God would have given them victory if they were relying on God! If they paid out they either admitted to being guilty or didn't rely on God or both! Where was God's direction upon that decision?

  So exactly how does God direct this religion if they seem to have some sort of a scandel every decade of their existance that they need to cover up! You don't have to tell her all this at once but one point at a time and if she doesn't have an answer tell he to find an answer and get back to you. You can tell her to read Thy Kingdom Come book which was written by Charles Russell that helped me open my ideas when I stumbled upon it! When people get baptized who weren't brought up as witnesses they have no idea about the history, hell people raised in WTS religion have no idea about their history! Tell her, you're not questioning her believe in bible or God but the religion and be careful how you approach her with your questions because if she discusses your questions with someone else and most likely is will and is at present it's possible that they will tell her that you're an opposer who deals with apostates and she may tell you that she can't speak to you no more because you are trying to destroy her faith. Hope any of the above help
• 

  Black Sheep

  Christ's return in 1914 is calculated from the fall of Jerusalem in 607.

  If you can prove that Jerusalem did not fall in 607 you can do some damage.

  It takes a lot of time and resources to do this so don't bother. Make her do all the work.

  Ask her for a list of Babylonian kings from Nebuchadnezzar to Nabonidus.

  It should sound like an easy challenge. Get her to agree to it, then insist that she includes the lengths of their reigns and the dates of their reigns.

  Most importantly, get her to agree to have the info. for you by a set date. Note the date in your PDA (with her watching). She must feel obligated to come up with the info. She must be made to feel guilt if she doesn't front up with it.

  Do not let her change the subject. Insist that you don't bother to discuss any other WT stuff until she comes up with this info.

  Every time she sees you, ask her for the info. Pressure is good. Do not let her change the subject.

  If her answer says that Nebuchadnezzar began his reign in 605 BC then she is correct, but the calculation she uses for Christ's return in 1914 will be 20 years out and will now be 1934.

  If her answer says that Nebuchadnezzar began his reign in 625 BC then go through the numbers with her and make sure they are correct. They won't be!!!

  Nabonidus' reign ended in 539 BC.

  Do not let her change the subject.

  Good luck

  Chris
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  AnnOMaly

  The key is don't overwhelm her with lots of facts and figures, and as Black Sheep said, keep her on topic.

  Hmmmm.... a LONG time ago she gave me the 5th Chapter of a Book (Proclaimer's) that stated the founder of the JWs proclaimed the return of Christ occurred in 1874.....and this was proclaimed as a fact for over 30 yrs., I believe! That chapter stated Russell proclaimed that as the LORD's truth, not his own. Did Jehovah screw up the date for His own Son's return? What did Jesus think when He returned and found the JWs proclaiming He already returned in 1874???

  That's a good possible starting point. Twice Jesus returned (1874 then 1914) and they, the faithful, missed it both times. Not only hadn't they been told about the returns at the time they happened, they hadn't been told they had been appointed as the 'slave' - they missed that too. The message only trickled through years after the alleged events. How does that square with the idea that the 'slave's' job is to dispense spiritual food at the right or proper time?

  If you want to go the number-crunching route, give her the Alleymom KISS -

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/55372/1/586-587-the-K-I-S-S-approach-no-VAT4956-Ptolemy-Josephus-needed

  You only need simple math and the WT publications to establish the lengths of kings' reigns and count backwards from 539 BCE. That might be enough for her to see there's something wrong with the picture.
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  isaacaustin

  Try what AnnOMaly suggested. Start at 539BCE and count backward using the WT length of reigns of the Babylonian kings. Of course, you mya get a braindead answer such as my wife gave me. She said even though 586/7 was probably the destruction of Jeru, Nebu could have started 'throwing pebbles' at them in 607BCE. I asked her how this was possible if he did not start reigning till 605BCE. She called it a possible rounding difference, whatever that means. I also pointed out that jeru was detroyed in Nebu's 18th yr. She agreed but insisted he could have started throwing pebbles aerlier so in that sens ethe line of Jeru rulers was interrupted.