by YoYoMama 38 Replies latest jw friends
I agree - without the shunning and familly breakup there would not be the sustained opposition to them to the same degree.
People should be free to leave if the want.
However, if people were free to leave I think a lot more would and I think they know this which is why there probably won't be any major changes on this anytime soon.
It has become a way for them to keep control and enforce devotion when their beliefs and doctrine don't hold water.
YoYo,
You asked if Paul advocated shunning and Jan said, "no." He's technically right, btw. But let's assume Paul did advocate shunning. That being the case he only listed 6 reasons to do so. These are a few of the reasons he did NOT list, and only a few that the WTS uses to enforce shunning:
Celebrating Christmas
Celebrating Birthdays
Celebrating Easter
Smoking cigarettes
Joining the YMCA
Visitng another Church for any occasion, including weddings and funerals
Working for another Church in your Secular Job
Joining the Military (DA offense, same thing)
"Petting"
Questioning WTS Doctrine
Challenging WTS Doctrine
Not screaming when being raped (formerly)
Having oral sex (formerly)
Having an organ transplant (formerly)
Having a blood transfusion
Accepting civilian alternative military service (formerly)
These are only a few. The real issue is not whether those things listed above are wrong or bad, or not, but whether those things are covered under the one and ONLY scripture of Paul that you referenced in 1 Cor 6:
9 In my letter I wrote YOU to quit mixing in company with fornicators, 10 not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, YOU would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? "Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves."
So we have fornicators, greedy persons, adulterers, revilers, extortioners and idolaters. Do you see "smokers" mentioned? How about "those who question religious authority?" How about "those who play pool at the local YMCA?"
Shunning as now practiced by JWs is the biggest source of evil in the JW faith, and it is one of the most important elements in the faith. If it was so important, why did not Jesus even mention it, then? Why did Paul only devote a very few verses to it? And most importantly, why does the WTS make up so much unscriptural shit about what would constitute, er, rather, DEMAND shunning in the congregations?
Farkel
"I didn't mean what I meant."
In the real world we have an effective system of sorting out who we want to associate with and who we prefer to ignore. It's not cruel or unkind, it's just a simple social structure that has evolved to help us go thru life associating with like minded people. It's our society's friendship structure. The WTS has interferred with this system, not trusting individuals to gravitate towards those who best suit them. They really had no need to come in weilding their big stick because people naturally steer away from those who don't behave as they do and they are drawn to those who are like themselves.
I might not have been so sure of how wrong the WTS was if it hadn't been for d'fing and shunning. Their treatment of me was proof positive that my leaving them was the right decision.
Marilyn (disfed for apostasy in 1981)
Great comments here YoYoMother.
As I see it, the problem for the Societymen in slackening thier iron like grip on the lives of the sheep is that they know the power of apostate thinking. They know doubts run deep and faith is shallow. They have seen how just a little contact with freed slaves can undermine years of hard indoctrination. They know that once one starts reporting less field service time and starts missing meetings they are on the slippery slope into inactivity. You can't be a Sunday JW. They fear thier God more than they love and respect him. They don't trust God much less thier fellow believers.
unclebruce walked away, unshunned in 1986.
I assure any and all readers that the WTBTS will NEVER give up on the entire informer/judicial/shunning arrangement. High control organizations always need a carrot and stick. The carrot of living forever on a paradise earth starting anytime soon grows less credible with each passing day. Likewise, the stick of being annihilated at the Big A doesn't carry much weight without at least a somewhat believable chronology. So with a limp carrot and the thin stick of the Big A, the only tool the WTBTS has left is the shunning stick.
The biggest fear of the WTBTS is that of freely flowing information about hte internals and the history of the organization. Their only hope of lessening the threat of an informed membership is to boot doubters as soon as possible.
Some think that dropping shunning will somehow "save" the WTBTS. To the contrary, I would think the member count would drop by at least three fouths or more as people found out the real truth.
Interesting question. I guess what one needs to do first is to determine the exact meaning of "apostate". The WTBTS has defined this label rather liberally, so that anyone who questions anything coming out of Brooklyn and who speaks about it openly becomes guilty of apostasy....even if the doctrine in question is later changed to coincide with what the questioner believed it should be.
As others have pointed out, this results in a thin veneer of unity, but is actually conformity. One of the results of this is the lack of any stimulating discussions amongst JWs. There is either a parroting of what the latest publication said, or a lively round of gossip.....the latter is usually the most likely scenario, since discussing the publications constantly is downright boring to most.
Those who found that they no longer agreed with the core doctrines of the JWs would most likely break off association and join another church where they felt more comfortable. Without disfellowshipping and the resultant shunning, they could do so amicably and without fear of losing all of their friends and family. They're doing so would prevent a lot of "closet hypocrisy", wherein JWs vainly attempt to stifle their true feelings for fear of losing all social and familial ties.
Conversely, those who had questions or doubts on minor issues would be more likely to discuss these things openly and without fear. Their doing so could serve as a mechanism to prevent many of the abuses of power that are so frequently seen in the congregations.
Good comment Brucie! I like it when you share of your wisdom, without dressing it up so as I can't understand it. :-) Witnesses just don't get it that their religion is very tenuious. Something like a strict diet - if you break the pattern a couple of times, it easier to do repeatedly until eventually you're stuffing pies and cakes down your throat as fast as you can stop by at the bakery. Sorry, what were we talking about? Oh yeah - strict rules = strict adherence = desired results.
Marilyn (who ain't been near no pie shop today!)
Skimmer, I hate to be argumentative, but d'fing has really only taken off in the last 20 yrs. Before that it was largely a lame duck! It was always there, but no where near as popular as it is now. What is the glue that held the Tower together before shunning became all the go?
Are we getting deep or what??? :-)
marilyn
If they quite DF'ing I'd say that probably at LEAST 1//3 of the JW's would walk away and probably more!
Ven
"Injustice will continue until those who are not affected by it are as outraged as those who are."
Hiya YoYo,
This is one of things I have a hang up on (no, I am not a JW). I am currently studying with them, however. The thing is, that they perpetually reason that one cannot take one scripture out and isolate it from the bible in its entirety...that is "taking it out of context". But they do this with this scripture. There are boo-coos of other scriptures that encourage us to be uplifting and loving, forgiving. That we should be helping those in need...etc. To shun someone because of a mistake or disagreement is a direct violation of the 2nd commandment that Jesus gave us at Matt 22:39. Not to mention the numerous scriptures about forgiving...a VERY good scripture being at 2 Corinth 2:5-7.
sadie
