(Apologies if this has been posted already...couldn't find it had)
I was sent this by a missionary. I am trying to figure out what to answer back.
Washington Post article - Knocking guy
by Dagney 14 Replies latest jw friends
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mraimondi
well he makes sense...
its true, there is, in this case, an appreciative difference between mormons and JWs - the former impose their beliefs into legislation, the latter does not.
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drew sagan
One of the main things I've noticed that Joel tries to do is set up Jehovah's Witnesses as an example of fundamentalists who are "doing it right". He seems to believe that the JWs voluntary removal from the political process provides a good example of how religions should be acting. As such, the film as well as the thigns he has written usually contain a very generic comparison of fundamentalists evangelicals (or in this case mormons) to JWs.
What Joel really believes is that even though JWs are "hated" by people of other faiths (and have even been heavily persecuted by them) JWs are actually morally superior. Kind of a "shame on you" tactic. JWs to him are more like a tool he can use to get across a moral argument.
Many people disagree with the Watchtower Society and Jehovahs Witnesses for non-theological reasons. The inconsistancy of their blood policy (as well as their aggressive tactics in upholding it), the restrictions on individual freedom of JWs to publish their own thoughts, disfellowshipping and all its abuses, as well as the denial of college are just a few of the many negative practices the Watchtower Society pushes along without question. One does not have to be religious to believe these things are wrong. As such, Joel creates a fantasy world in which this small sect of neutral JWs who mind their own business and hurt nobody are a shining exmample for the worlds religious hypocrites. To compare these two groups in such a stark way in simply a mistake.
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trebor
It's his mother who is a JW. Some feel very defensive and protective/supportative of JW when family members are involved. If Joel's mother was Amish the story would have a similar slant but towards the Amish belief system. This is not to minimize the fact that people throughout history (Including JW) have been wrongly punished as a result of doing no harm but seemingly good to others. It doesn't make them a true religion or only right faith; just victums of circumstance. JW suffered during WW II? Sure....As well as many other groups, including over 6 million Jewish people.
I did find it very interesting the similarities and comparisons made to the Mormon faith. They share a lot in common with JW when it comes to teaching techniques, beliefs of needing their publications for understanding of truth, and consequences if one leaves the faith. Both religions being started by a man. For the Witnesses it is Charles Taze Russell, for Mormon's it is Joseph Smith.
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Dogpatch
good comments Drew.
don't be a stranger.
Randy
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Gayle
Joel Engardio is gay as noted here in his story. He praises and respects JWs how they have fought in the courts for their freedom and liberty and US laws require tolerance toward JWs,,Joel believes this in part opened and created stepping stones for other minority groups, including gays.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16505529
However, Joel never became a baptized JW. Well, he and we know why. He was never baptized because he knew what would happen to him in the JW culture. He would not be tolerated, he would be ostracized, disfellowshipped, expelled, shunned. His mother would never be allowed to speak with him then. So he beat the JW system and now he can be a practicing gay, praised by the Watchtower Society for his film and his mother can still speak with him. My issue is not against gays but how can one so praise JWs and know the truth about JWs that they are intolerant of all religions, all politics, and gay groups and totally ostracize their own that have grown up in it if they choose to believe differently. I disrepect him for not informing the "full" story of JWs, and he only painted a slanted story through rose-colored glasses.
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cabasilas
Drew said:
JWs to him are more like a tool he can use to get across a moral argument.
Exactly. If you read Joel's writings online, you can see his main focus these days is as a gay activist. I believe the real reason he got into the "Knocking" project was a political one.
The first words of the Knocking website says:
KNOCKING opens the door on Jehovah's Witnesses. They are moral conservatives who stay out of politics and the Culture War, but they won a record number of court cases expanding freedom for everyone.
And the opening of the Knocking video asks:
Is it possible for a morally conservative religion to stay out of the culture wars, to merely share their message not legislate it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4agnPkzM01M&feature=related
It's ironic that his documentary on JWs "Knocking" is used in a very political way and the JWs by promoting Knocking are promoting his political stance about the culture wars.
Knocking makes many good points. But, I agree with Gayle that Joel paints the JWs through rose colored glasses. I believe that in order for him to get the JWs to cooperate in the production of the video he knew he had to handle some issues with "kid gloves." So, while the video gives the appearance of being balanced, there is much that is not discussed or minimized.
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Confession
"But the choice to accept or not ends at the front door for the Witnesses. They don't amend the constitution to force everyone to live their way. State laws are not needed to legitimize their moral views."
Let's be clear, Joel... The ONLY reason JWs don't "amend the constitution," is because they have completely withdrawn from participation in government. And that is ONLY because of their misguided belief that Armageddon is coming at any moment. But, Joel, allow yourself to ask these questions...
-Do Jehovah's Witnesses want to live in a world where people are free to live the lives they so choose?
-Does the grand hope Jehovah's Witnesses cling to, and avidly preach to the entire world--that of God's Kingdom taking control of the earth--allow a place for practicing homosexuals?
-What do Jehovah's Witnesses believe will happen to practicing homosexuals at Armageddon? And do they, or do they not, applaud this?
-If Jehovah's Witnesses didn't believe Armageddon was coming for another couple of hundred years, do you think they'd start voting? And how do you think they'd vote on the subject of gay marriage?
The fact that Jehovah's Witnesses don't vote against gay marriage is because they don't frigging vote AT ALL, you bozo! And it certainly is NO commentary on their beliefs about openness or freedom. Not only do they not want you to marry...they want you dead! The only reason they do not participate in your destruction themselves is because they are eagerly awaiting your destruction by their God, who will do a more complete job than they would.
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cabasilas
I mentioned above that I felt Knocking was more of a sympathetic film about JWs than a balanced one. To illustrate, I'd like to share this discussion that was posted on the Knocking PBS website a couple of years ago. It shows the evolution of the "Myth or Reality" statement that appeared on the Knocking site about JWs and higher education.
http://discussions.pbs.org/viewtopic.pbs?t=74362&postdays=0&postorder=asc&topic_view=&start=0
I had several emails with Joel Engardio on the subject and his first responses resisted making changes in how he explained the JW position. Then he made some changes but still resisted telling people that JWs were discouraged from going to college.
The website now says:
Since then, more young Witnesses began to attend college classes and many still do. Recently, Witnesses have been strongly encouraged to replace higher education goals with ministry work.
The current statement is closer to what I'd call "balanced," but he still can't admit on the website that Witness leaders discourage higher education for their members.
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Lillith26
After reading the artical (in Washinton Post), and then having a closer look at the whole PROP 8 issuse... I AM ANGRY!!!!!!!
This is what happens when "religion' gets invovled with matters of the state! WTF are they afraid will happen if same sex couples are legally allowed to marry? Wont all the extra hen's nights and buck's parties help boost the USA economy? Wont all the extra spending on weddings and honeymoons help boost the USA economy? Wont couples from all over the world visiting the USA to get married and spend their money there help boost the economy? Why waste so much money desciding on something that should not even be an issue?
LET THEM GET MARRIED!!!!