by Tuesday 347 Replies latest watchtower bible
This is a perfect example of one of the pitfalls of a company training all their salesmen with the same spiel.
These JWs were very confident as the truly active, zealous ones are. Too bad they were only WT trained and not bible trained.
A more knowledgeable and "experienced" JW would never have taken the chance of talking to someone who might be bible trained, let alone be filmed.
They know their arguments only work on those who don't have alot of bible knowledge
wp
Chalam..thanks for the welcome. I have long ago given up on trying to interpret the bible and find truth in it. Contradictions abound. So to answer your question, the verses seem to say that Jesus is the alpha and omega. Are you happy now..LOL.
stronglogos
....: This organization does it not claim to speak for Jehovah? Yes or No
probably in the same fashion you claim to speak for Jesus. Right?
....:these are 2 repersentives of Jehovah? Yes or No.
I have no clue what Jehovah thinks of them.
...: Me or Jim could tell YOU what you must do to be saved!
Oh really? What proof do you have of this? What proof do you have that your words will actually save me? Do you know someone who has been saved and has come back from the dead to reveal this insight to you or Jim? Like you say..WOW, I CAN"T BELIEVE YOU SAID THAT.
My comment earlier was simply to tell you that the two witnesses you had were not the sharpest knves in the drawer. You claim victory, but over what? Tell Jim to seek out better opponents next time maybe I'll be in a better position to compare his performance and comment positively.
Mark
Just wanted to add this link to an article: "Jesus Christ: Firstborn of All Creation" that's in this tract "Watch Out!"
http://www.archive.org/details/WatchOutAnti-jehovahsWitnessTract
Hey thats amazing.
Love the way they make it look just like a WT - it is even written like one.
nice find, thanks for posting
One thing WT defenders forget is that the WT doctrine is dishonest and self-serving.
Whether you believe in the trinity or not - why does the WT have to use unethical methods to grind it into their follower's mind?
The "Should you believe in the trinity" brochure is full of misquotes. If I had truth on my side, why would I jeopardize another's trust by resorting to trickery and unethical behavior to get someone to agree with me?
wp
MarkSutter, I am OnlyJesusCanSaveYou from YouTube and am the 5th man in the room during the video recording (with the 2 representatives) of the WatchTower Society. I am the one who set this meeting up with one of the representatives who I work with.
MarkSutter, Stronglogos's computer is inoperatable at the moment and has requested that I convey His message to you. Before I do I want to point out to you and Reniaa since I intended to give a personal response to her that these 2 representatives are experienced witnesses and one of them has over 25 years of experience and is old enough to be your (Reniaa's) father.
I Daniel a.k.a. OnlyJesusCanSaveYou want to tell you that you are not a believer in the God of the Bible. Now here is Stronglogos response to you.
Stronglogos to Mark: 'Mark it seems that you are an atheist or agnostic from your response. But whether you're a Jehovah's Witness, an atheist or an agnostic it doesn't matter. We have all broken God's law. Have you ever told a lie? Have you ever stolen something? Have you ever looked at someone to lust after them? Have you ever hated anyone? Have you ever taken God's name in vain? Have you ever dishonored you parents? Have you ever coveted? Have you ever had sex outside of marriage? Have you ever gotten drunk? Have you always put God first in your life? Have you always loved your neigbor as yourself? Mark we're all guilty of sinning against God and if you say that you haven't sinned then you are a liar. Mark the God of the Bible says that the penalty for sin is Revelation 21:8. I care about you Mark and want you to know the truth. This message will save you: 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 3:16-18, 3:36, 14:6, Acts 10:43, 16:31. Mark death is chasing you and eventually it is going to get us and we are going to go into eternity. Where are you going to spend eternity Mark? Mark, you asked what proof do I have of this well read Romans 1:20. You can also read Psalms chapter 19. From my own experience all my faith is put in Jesus as Jehovah and I am trusting in HIS death to save me so I have been born again. I HAVE THE ASSURANCE that my sins are forgiven and when I die to be abscent from the body it to be present with the LORD 2 Corinthians 5:7,8 and 1 John 5:13 I have Jehovah's promise on this.'
There you go Stronglogos has told you right there how you can be saved! Now look up those verses for yourself and do what they say. Mark you need to do a little research on the internet and you will see many people who have died and their stories agree of the things they have seen and line up with what the Bible says. Look up '23 Minutes in Hell' and '90 minutes in Heaven' and read Luke 16:19-31 which will give you insight into this. God wants you to know what is on the other side.
hi JJF you have a long name :)
they may have been long-term witnesses but biblejim is obviously skilled at controlling these type of debate situations, I noticed at one point the main witness was going to make a point and bible jim just jumped to the other witness cutting him off.
I also noticed Jim listened to him only to shallowly while mostly flicking through his bible looking for counter arguments for his set postion. To be honest I probs would have ended it early because it was obvious that jim wasn't interested in finding out Jw viewpoint but more making a stage for his own views. You set up this whole meeting? I hope the witnesses found it a learning experience.
I posted responses on youtube to the scriptures Jim used which were not accepted, so it is clear only positive unchallenging responses are allowed hmmm I would respect you more if you allowed the apposing viewpoints to stand but thats life.
Take care
Reniaa
Reniaa writes: "I posted responses on youtube to the scriptures Jim used which were not accepted so it is clear only positive unchallenging responses are allowed, hmmm I would respect you more if you allowed the apposing viewpoints to stand but thats life."
**** It's funny you say that Reniaa. Because the very same thing you whine about here is exactly what you get in watchtower land all the time. At assemblies, watchtower studies, book studies, experiences and anywhere else for that matter. Only positive, unchallenged watchtower in a good light rhetoric nonsense.
In fact, because I simply disagreed on blood, and presented FACTS that showed how bad a WT policy blood is, I was then told I MUST AGREE with the written JW blood policy that is current light; or I had to disassociate or be disfellowshipped out.
How's THAT for "only positive, unchallenged responses"?
And then you get to be judged, labeled and shunned, by all JW's for the rest of your life (including the kid I raised since he was 6).
But for some reason, I bet Reniaa is okay when it comes to WT policies like that which forbid anything critical or challenging. I think they call that a double standard. What you say Reniaa?
Hey Reniaa, just remember Jehovah was never behind any of THIS: http://www1.tip.nl/~t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm
Yep, the printed page tells it like it is.
MANY PAGES.
Vinny
Hi everyone, I'm just now getting to jump back into this thread. (I took a couple of days off, I needed the rest, lol)
Let me start by saying that I am disappointed and upset when I read certain people's comments that it doesn't matter what we believe about the identity or nature of Jesus and His Father. These same people say that the only important thing is that we follow Jesus' teachings and morals.
Where is that ever taught in Scripture? Where does the Bible ever separate what Jesus taught about Himself (His identity and nature) from the morals that He taught? How can you possibly separate His teachings like that, and pick-and-choose what you want to believe?
Look, according to the Bible, you can either accept ALL of Christ's teachings, or NONE of His teachings. If you only accept SOME of His teachings, you are NOT one of His true disciples. Jesus condemns those who claim to do "good works" in His Name but they do not KNOW Him.
Here are the most important Scriptures for those who do not think it is important to know Jesus' true identity and nature:
John 8:24 (NIV): "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."
2nd John 1:9-11 (NIV): Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.
2nd Corinthians 11:2-4 (NIV): I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.
John 6:28-29 (NIV): Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
J ohn 5:23 (NIV): that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
The bottom line is the fact that the bible clearly indicates that both man and angels are capable of sin.
So therefore, the question remains is who is w/o sin that can qualify as a sin offering for mankind? It can't be man because he's born with sin and angels can't do it because they're just as fallible as Lucifer was.
In the old days, when a sheep is sacrificed as a offering for the atonement for man's sins, it has to be 100% unblemished. If a man cheats by plucking a single black hair off a sheep and makes the appearance that the sheep is flawless and not a single strand of color other than white is present on the sheep. When the High Priest sprinkles the blood of a blemished sheep on the ark of the covenant, the High Priest is immediately struck dead on the spot.
Thus the reason why High Priests wear bells on themselves when they go inside the Holy of Holies to perform the blood rite on the ark. If they hear the bells stop ringing, then the other priests will know he's dead because of one of the two things, he either a.) didn't perform the rite correctly or (b) the blood of the lamb as tainted.
God is very strict about no blemishes of any kind and we both know that blemishes represents sin.
So, back to the offering that Christ made of himself, did Christ have any blemishes when he died on the cross? Remember, man nor angel can't qualify as a sin offering for man's sins, so who is qualified then?
