Congregation "Bible Study" Comments - Week Commencing 8 June 2009

by LUKEWARM 13 Replies latest jw friends

  • LUKEWARM
    LUKEWARM

    *** lv pp. 212-215 Flag Salute, Voting, and Civilian Service ***

    Flag Salute, Voting, and Civilian Service

    Flag salute. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that bowing down to a flag or saluting it, often in conjunction with an anthem, is a religious act that ascribes salvation, not to God, but to the State or to its leaders. (Isaiah 43:11; 1 Corinthians 10:14; 1 John 5:21) One such leader was King Nebuchadnezzar of ancient Babylon. To impress the people with his majesty and religious ardor, this powerful monarch erected a great image and compelled his subjects to bow down to it while music, like an anthem, was being played. However, three Hebrews-Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego-refused to bow to the image, even on pain of death.-Daniel, chapter 3.

    "Jehovah's Witnesses believe..." so no need to use your own conscience, they have decided for you.

    The WT$ makes no distinctions between modern democracies and ancient kingdoms.

    Didn't Jesus say, "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's"?

    In our age, "nationalism's chief symbol of faith and central object of worship is the flag," wrote historian Carlton Hayes. "Men bare their heads when the flag passes by; and in praise of the flag poets write odes and children sing hymns." Nationalism, he added, also has its "holy days," such as the Fourth of July in the United States, as well as its "saints and heroes" and its "temples," or shrines. In a public ceremony in Brazil, the minister general of the army acknowledged: "The flag is venerated and worshiped ... just as the Fatherland is worshiped." Yes, "the flag, like the cross, is sacred," The Encyclopedia Americana once observed.

    Do worldly people venerate and worship the state? NO

    Do Jehovah's Witnesses worship the organization? Yes

    Does everyone saluting the flag view it as sacred or do so for nationalistic reasons? NO

    As far as God is concerned, doesn't it really depend on the attitude of the person involved?

    Jesus counselled that one should "remove the rafter from your own eye" before finding fault with his brother - advice the WT$ would do well to consider in view of the idolatrous attitude they display towards their own 'earthly organization' and its commands that ignore "do not go beyond the things that are written" 1 Cor. 4:6


    The aforementioned encyclopedia more recently noted that national anthems "are expressions of patriotic feeling and often include an invocation for divine guidance and protection of the people or their rulers." Jehovah's servants are not being unreasonable, therefore, when they view patriotic ceremonies involving the flag salute and national anthems as religious. In fact, when commenting on the refusal of children of Jehovah's Witnesses to give homage to the flag or to swear the oath of allegiance in U.S. schools, the book The American Character stated: "That these daily rituals are religious has been at last affirmed by the Supreme Court in a series of cases."

    Does participating in these actions constitute a compromise of Christian integrity?

    Should persons sacrifice their lives for their refusal in participation on this issue?


    While not joining in ceremonies that they view as unscriptural, Jehovah's people certainly respect the right of others to do so. They also respect national flags as emblems and recognize duly constituted governments as "superior authorities" serving as "God's minister." (Romans 13:1-4) Hence, Jehovah's Witnesses heed the exhortation to pray "concerning kings and all those who are in high station." Our motive, though, is "in order that we may go on leading a calm and quiet life with full godly devotion and seriousness."-1 Timothy 2:2.

    Political involvement by God's followers is shown consistently throughout the Bible so what is the problem?

    So does one stand or sit during the national anthem?


    *** w02 9/15 p. 24 "Salvation Belongs to Jehovah" ***
    "When national anthems are played, usually all a person has to do to show that he shares the sentiments of the song is to stand up. In such cases, Christians remain seated. If they are already standing when the national anthem is played, however, there is no need for them to take the special action of sitting down. It is not as though they had specifically chosen to stand for the anthem. On the other hand, if a group are expected to stand and sing, then merely standing up out of respect but not singing would not constitute sharing in the sentiments of the song."


    The WT$ are are truly modern day Pharisees!

    Voting in political elections. True Christians respect the right of others to vote. They do not campaign against elections, and they cooperate with elected authorities. However, they remain resolutely neutral with regard to the political affairs of the nations. (Matthew 22:21; 1 Peter 3:16) What should a Christian do in lands where voting is compulsory or in a situation where feelings run high against those who do not go to the voting booth? Remembering that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego went as far as the plain of Dura, a Christian, under similar circumstances, may decide to go to the booth if his conscience permits. However, he will take care not to violate his neutrality. He should take into account the following six principles:

    1. Jesus' followers are "no part of the world."-John 15:19.

    2. Christians represent Christ and his Kingdom.-John 18:36; 2 Corinthians 5:20.

    3. The Christian congregation is united in belief, and its members are bound together by Christlike love.-1 Corinthians 1:10; Colossians 3:14.

    4. Those who elect a certain official share responsibility for what he does.-Note the principles behind the words recorded at 1 Samuel 8:5, 10-18 and 1 Timothy 5:22.

    5. Jehovah viewed Israel's desire for a visible ruler as a sign that they had rejected Him.-1 Samuel 8:7.

    6. Christians must have freeness of speech when speaking to people of all political persuasions about God's Kingdom government.-Matthew 24:14; 28:19, 20; Hebrews 10:35.

    How many JW's will remember the WT$ previous stance regarding voting?
    ***wt 77 11/15/1977 p 686 Why Persecution of Christians?
    "The Witnesses are neutral as to warfare and strife between the nations, as well as being clean from all political involvement, not even voting, because they fulfill Jesus' description of them as being "no part of the world." (John 17:14) For the same reason they do not salute the flag or emblem of any nation. For a Christian witness of Jehovah to give devotion, worship or service to, or to bow to or salute any image or idol is a grave sin in the eyes of God.-1 John 5:21; Acts 15:29; compare Exodus 20:4, 5; Deuteronomy 5:8, 9.


    And now (well since 11/1999) this: "Remembering that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego went as far as the plain of Dura, a Christian, under similar circumstances, may decide to go to the booth if his conscience permits"

    Old policy: Voting is wrong. It's a grave sin in the eyes of God
    New policy: Voting is up to your conscience. Take care not to violate your neutrality

    It's truly disgusting how many JW's were beaten, lost property, were raped, spent time in jail - some died - because of not being able to exercise conscience in this matter and with one sentence the WTS changes the policy - where is the apology for the unnecessary suffering of the victims?

    Civilian service. In some lands, the State requires that those who reject military service engage in some form of civilian service for a period of time. When faced with a decision on this matter, we should pray about it, perhaps discuss it with a mature fellow Christian, and then make our decision on the basis of an informed conscience.-Proverbs 2:1-5; Philippians 4:5.

    Another bungled WTS LAW which caused the unnecessary suffering of so many which has now been converted to "conscience matter"...

    ***wt 86 1/9 p. 20***
    "...when Caesar demanded to have God's things, they acted in harmony with the principles stated at Acts 4:19 and Acts 5:29. Whether the issue was shedding blood, non-combatant military work, alternative service, or saluting an image such as a national flag, faithful Christians took the position that there was no middle ground.In some cases they were executed because of this stand, Matthew 24:9; Revelation 2:10"
    God's Word tells us to "be obedient to governments and authorities as rulers, to be ready for every good work, ... to be reasonable." (Titus 3:1, 2) With that in mind, we might ask ourselves the following questions: 'Will accepting the proposed civilian work compromise my Christian neutrality or cause me to be involved with false religion?' (Micah 4:3, 5; 2 Corinthians 6:16, 17) 'Would doing this work make it difficult for me to fulfill my Christian responsibilities or even prevent me from fulfilling them?' (Matthew 28:19, 20; Ephesians 6:4; Hebrews 10:24, 25) 'On the other hand, would engaging in such service involve a schedule that would allow me to expand my spiritual activities, perhaps sharing in the full-time ministry?'-Hebrews 6:11, 12.

    If a Christian conscientiously concludes that he could perform civilian service rather than go to prison, fellow Christians should respect his decision. (Romans 14:10) If, though, he feels that he cannot perform such service, others should respect that position as well.-1 Corinthians 10:29; 2 Corinthians 1:24.

    It's truly disgusting how many JW's were beaten, lost property, were raped, spent time in jail - some died - because of not being able to exercise conscience in this matter and with one sentence the WTS changes the policy - where is the apology for the unnecessary suffering of the victims?

    This is what they published when the change came through:

    ***wt 98 15/8 p. 17***
    "In the past, some Witnesses have suffered for refusing to share in an activity that their conscience now might permit. For example, this might have been their choice years ago as to certain types of civilian service. A brother might now feel that he could conscientiously perform such without overstepping his Christian neutrality regarding the present system of things.

    Was it unrighteous on Jehovah's part to allow him to suffer for rejecting what he might do without consequences...What reason could anyone have to regret having followed his conscience in taking a firm stand for Jehovah?

    By loyally upholding Christian principles as they understood them or by responding to prodding of conscience they proved worthy of Jehovah's friendship. Certainly, it is wise to avoid a course that would disturb one's conscience...

    In modern times, there have been some Witnesses who were very strict in their view of what they would or would not do. For that reason they suffered more than others. Later, increased knowledge helped them to expand their view of matters. But they have no reason to regret having earlier acted in harmony with their conscience even when this possibly brought extra suffering. It truly is commendable that they demonstrated their willingness to suffer in faithfulness to Jehovah..."

    Disgusting that they link this unnecessary suffering to "faithfulness to Jehovah", when it was nothing more that a "teaching of men".

    What Pharisees!

  • Will Power
    Will Power

    Don't forget this is how the exaggerated ban on blood started.

    during the war the ads used patriotism to get people to share and save lives.

    wp

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    Saluting the flag does not imply that one believes that the country is perfect. One can salute the flag, even though they do not like Osama Obama as president, they think we are heading for a totalitarian country, or they are worried about the deficit. In fact, it is possible for one to be patriotic without worshiping the nation.

    A patriotic person will do whatever is within their means to improve the country. This does not mean perfection. What it does mean is things like going to war to defend the country if the occasion calls for it, protesting a stupid law that violates the Constitution, paying one's taxes on time, voting for the person that one feels is most likely to improve the country the most, and possibly helping out to make their street a little better or safer. A patriotic person might create or market a better car that uses less gas or a different fuel, a cure for cancer (so our country can have longer life expectancy), or generate real wealth so that the economy can thrive. At no time does this one think the country is perfect, or even could potentially be perfect. Such person is working to improve the country--which is proper. (Though not by washtowel standards--the Filthful and Disgraceful Slavebugger doesn't want the tribulations to be lessened by a few patriotic people working to improve their countries).

    On the other hand, witlesses are in fact worshiping their organization. Because they accept it as is, without making any attempt to improve it, they are effectively worshiping it. They will not improve it--and the ones that loyally do try to improve the organization usually end up disfellowshipped.

    I would rather work toward keeping this republic (or what's left of it) a republic, rather than go into a religious organization that is trying to unpatriotically usurp the government (and start the Second Dark Ages, if they are successful).

  • trebor
    trebor

    Hey LukeWarm...Nice job...Just wanted to add the entire history of Watchtower Society's voting stance:

    1950 - Conscience choice
    [November 15, 1950, Watchtower, pages 445 and 446 ‘Subjection to the Higher Powers']

    1973 - Do not vote
    [Watchtower October 15, 1973, page 627 ‘Why People of All Kinds Are Becoming Jehovah's Witnesses’; Watchtower, December 15, 1973, page 741 ‘Earth’s Rulers for a Thousand Years’]

    1981 - Do not vote including disfellowshipped for doing so
    [Pay Attention To Yourselves and to All the Flock. Copyright 1981. page 149 under '(4) Neutrality']

    1986 - Do not vote
    [Watchtower, September 1, 1986, page 21]

    1999 - Conscience choice
    [Watchtower, November 1, 1999, ‘Questions for Readers’, pages 28 and 29]

    Their "current" stance is their "old" stance from 1950! Another flip-flop from the boys in Brooklyn.

  • steve2
    steve2

    This is an extremely helpful thread. I am way behind "changes" in the organization and had not realised the "softened" view on voting and performing civilian service come in. When did this change come in?

  • lrkr
    lrkr

    This is one of those "duh" subjects that makes you realize just how brainwashed you were. Flag salute and national anthem are religious. Duh?? No one thinks that except JWs. Everyone else on the planet sees them as they really are- an expression of loyalty to your homeland. Yeesh.

  • LUKEWARM
    LUKEWARM

    Thanks for the timeline trebor!

    Steve 2 - here are some links which will give you context...

    VOTING CHANGES:
    http://www.jwfiles.com/vote.htm

    ALTERNATIVE SERVICE CHANGES:
    http://www.adam.com.au/bstett/JwWTSandAlternativeService70.htm

  • insearchoftruth
    insearchoftruth

    Thanks Lukewarm,

    Great stuff

  • Mary
    Mary
    Jehovah's servants are not being unreasonable, therefore, when they view patriotic ceremonies involving the flag salute and national anthems as religious. In fact, when commenting on the refusal of children of Jehovah's Witnesses to give homage to the flag or to swear the oath of allegiance in U.S. schools, the book The American Character stated: "That these daily rituals are religious has been at last affirmed by the Supreme Court in a series of cases."

    Wow! So swearing the oath of allegiance is a religious ritual eh? Good think that none of the leader of the WTS has ever done that.........

    Knorr0001.jpg picture by sam3217

    What a bunch of frigging hypocrites...........

  • compound complex
    compound complex

    Steve, et al:

    Please see the following regarding IN SEARCH OF CHRISTIAN FREEDOM:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/131462/1/IN-SEARCH-OF-CHRISTIAN-FREEDOM-Ray-Franz

    Also, from an older thread:

    Some have expressed interest in the above title and their wish to have it for themselves. The chapter of particular importance to many of us is "Legalism - Opponent of Christian Freedom." At the following links you will find comments from JWD members and observations by Ray Franz on child custody cases, theocratic legislation, alternative service, acceptable secular work situations, and "labelling."

    www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/126156/6.ashx [see also pages 7 -14]

    www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/131171/1.ashx

    Thank you and happy reading!

    Compound-Complex

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