by cognac 21 Replies latest jw friends
He never asks me spiritual questions... But, he just did, and I don't know what to say.
He asked what the issue of sovereignty has to do with us? Why do we have to suffer because of what Satan did? Satan has been proven a liar over and over again, so why do we have to keep paying the price? It doesn't seem fair.
What do I say?
Ok, more questions added...
Why did people have to die? Couldn't Jehovah's sovereinty be proved without them dying or suffering for that matter?
I will definitely not come from the same answer as some firm believers will. I have had trouble with organized religion and I totally disbelieve in the God of the Bible, but try this answer.
"You are stuck in WT beliefs. WTS is not the truth, therefore their sovereignty issue is not correct. I don't have all the answers to your questions, but we are free to examine the issues for ourselves and seek the answers. We can consult with any sources, any religions, anyone or anything we want to consult with to learn about the answers. And it is better to not have the answers and know that we don't have the answers than it is to just blindly accept the wrong answers."
Yes - it is difficult to answer these questions.
First, you need to ask yourself if the bible is true, or b.s. I choose to believe that it's b.s., so my answer is quite easy to comprehend. If you don't think the bible is b.s., and you can give me a logical explanation, please do so.
My opinion is that the Bible doesn't address those questions clearly because it is a book of myths that others developed into a following.
I have to agree that, were it an actual fact that Satan disrupted God's paradise, your husband is right that God could have found some better way to clear matters up. I personally feel that Adam and Eve (were they real) were given an unfair test of obedience with ignorance. How can you give them the desire to "be like god" or "know good from evil" but actually keep them from such knowledge, then give them a test that requires a knowledge of good and evil?
But your husband is better to develop his own point of view on each of his questions. Basically, he's going to keep asking "If WTS is wrong, then what is right?" The beautiful thing about being out of WTS is that you can ask such questions and seek your own answers.
well for sure i woul AGREE.........just ask where the idea of universal sovereignty is in the bible???..........aint there.........why would god let satan be in heaven after adam and eve........after job.......after killin his own son???????????........then two thousand years later finally kick his ass out?......plus why would things get worse on earth since he had the ability to be here the whole time???.........god is all powerful......so nobody could have questioned his ass if he whacked satan when he went badass...nor could the angels protest.......hell he is god almight powerful dammit......what would he need to prove?..........oompa
"For God loved the world so much that he consented to use mankind as a lab experiment, allowing them to be lied to, cheated, enslaved, diseased, butchered, burned, and pissed on so that they would have the privilege of demonstrating that they can be loyal to a God who loves them so much." 1 Rocco 1:1
Yeah, I've been asking the same question for 30 years.
W
He asked what the issue of sovereignty has to do with us?
The WTS claims that each individual Christian [JW] has the responsibility of upholding Jehovah's sovereignty, the way loyal subjects of a kingdom have a responsibility to uphold a monarch's rulership. To do otherwise would be an act of treason [rebellion] against the government. JWs believe that Satan the Devil™ challenged Jehovah's rightful sovereignty in the Garden of Eden™, and that righteous worshipers of Jehovah over the centuries since then have demonstrated their loyalty to Jehovah's chosen form of government. According to JWs, Jehovah's Kingdom™ was established in heaven in 1914, having cast Satan from heaven to the realm of the earth where he is misleading people to follow him. People who are loyal to Jehovah may be spared destruction at Armageddon™ and may be rewarded for their loyalty with Living Forever In Paradise On Earth™, while the rest of mankind (i.e., 99.999% of the earth's population) will be destroyed.
Why do we have to suffer because of what Satan did?
We aren't technically suffering because of what Satan the Devil™ did, we are suffering because of Adam's sin. We are flawed - Imperfect™ - because of Adam's sin, and we need redemption, which Jesus provided by his death. Unfortunately, Jesus' paying for our sins isn't quite enough, because otherwise we wouldn't be required to prove anything to anyone, let alone God, who is supposed to know us better than we know ourselves. We need to work our little hineys off banging on doors and trying to get people to listen to the message that emanates forth from the printing presses in Brooklyn, park our backsides on uncomfortable chairs for 5 hours a week listening to more messages (repetition of messages, really) that emanate from the printing presses in Brooklyn, and spend even more time in deep personal study of messages emanating from the printing presses in Brooklyn. Even better, we should give as much of our hard earned money as we can to support those printing presses, because surely God can't do that, and at the same time, we shouldn't expect to live too comfortably because that might damage our Faith™.
Satan has been proven a liar over and over again, so why do we have to keep paying the price? It doesn't seem fair.
Really? Has Satan been proven a liar? Read the conversations between God and Adam and the one between Eve and the serpent again.
And Jehovah God proceeded to take the man and settle him in the garden of Eden to cultivate it and to take care of it. And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: "From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die." ~ Genesis 2:15-17.
Now the serpent proved to be the most cautious of all the wild beasts of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it began to say to the woman: "Is it really so that god said you must not eat from every tree of the garden?" At this the woman said to the serpent: "Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. But as for [eating] of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it that you do not die.'" At this the serpent said to the woman: "You positively will not die. For God knows that in the very day of your eating from it your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God, knowing good and bad." ~ Genesis 3:1-5
It seems to me that God's threat was an empty one - he did not kill Adam and Eve immediately upon discovering that they'd eaten the fruit. And, why, pray tell, would a loving God want his most superlative creation, the ones made in his own image, to NOT have the capacity to know good and bad in the first place? It seems that if God was making man in his own image, that moral compass would be required equipment, don't you think? So, in other words, God deliberately made Adam and Eve defective [not in his image, after all] by not installing the knowledge of good and bad that he had himself, and actually withheld that capacity from them, plus God was the one lying about (a) making man in his own image and (b) that eating from the tree would result in pretty much immediate death. Satan wasn't the one lying. And it was proved in the fact that Adam and Eve did not die "in the day" that they ate from the tree. Satan also didn't lie about their eyes being opened to the knowledge of good and bad, he actually showed Adam and Eve that God was withholding something from them that was for their benefit - knowing good and bad for themselves - the part of Adam and Eve that made them to be not-quite-made-in-God's-image after all.
So perhaps another, more appropriate question would be, why would God hold someone accountable for not merely "following orders" (especially dumb orders like "don't eat that fruit or I'll kill you") when they had no moral sense to begin with? Why would God try to control people whom he claimed were made in his own image with FEAR rather than give them clear REASONS for obedience and loyalty? Your husband is right about it "not being fair" - but not exactly for the reasons he feels are unfair.
Why did people have to die? Couldn't Jehovah's sovereinty be proved without them dying or suffering for that matter?
Well we are talking about Yahweh/Jehovah here. Time and again this Jealous God™ has behaved more like a petty tyrant in the Old Testament, a blood-thirsty, intolerant, genocidal maniac. This is the "god" who created man in his own image, and then decided that he wanted them to chop off the ends of their penises as a test of loyalty. This is the "god" who sent angels to Lot, and then Blessed™ him for offering his virgin daughters to a mob of men who were intent on raping them. This is the "god" who rewarded David with the throne of Israel after producing the foreskins of 200 Philistines. This is the "god" who blessed Jacob after his sons got an entire city of men to agree to be circumcised in order to enter a business arrangement with the "peace loving" sons of Israel, and then slaughtered every one of the men while they were in agony from their circumcisions. (Genesis 34) This is the "god" who turned a blind eye to the trickery of Rebekah, the wife of Isaac, who conspired with Jacob to deprive Esau of his birthright and the blessing of his blind father.
Is this really a "god" whose sovereignty you'd want to uphold, or is he just some lying blood-thirsty tyrannical pervert with a massive collection of foreskins?
I do reluctantly agree with the Jws about the issue raised in the Garden of Eden. Obviously (if you believe in the bible) The question looms large - Can man rule himself or does he need God? That is the question of Genesis. It would not be solved by killing Adam and Eve and Satan. It is not about what Satan did but what Adam did that we suffer for. It is not fair - obvious truth you can't disagree with. God has his own sense of fairness and righteousness not subject to our approval. "If" you believe in God at all you understand that he takes the "long view" a child dying of plague in 1340 or someone suffering today is no different. If he will resurect them the old life will be gone. There is no way to believe in God without this understanding. The price has to be paid by all of us for our imperfect state. If the Bible is BS then there is no answer just deal with it.
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