The Watchtower Didn't Make Me An Atheist

by B_Deserter 111 Replies latest jw experiences

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  drwtsn32

  Nice post!

  Hope Mouthy reads it.
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  chickpea

  well put, B.. excellent summation of
  the journey thru "religion" to atheism...

  i am happy enough for individuals
  who have determined religion serves
  some purpose in their lives, just
  wish they would learn to keep it
  out of governance....
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  B_Deserter

  Thanks for the compliments everyone. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
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  rebel8

  Some people assume we become atheists because we're lazy--hating religion and too lazy to find out what God really wants.

  Au contraire. I went through years of spiritual exploration before I was ready to give up on the idea that there is a bearded sky daddy somewhere who's going to take me away from all this. I began really studying science and found out the truth. It was hard to accept, but I decided I'd dedicate myself to truth, whatever it may be. Not lazy at all.
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  Deputy Dog

  I stopped believing in the supernatural.

  What presuppositions have you adopted in it's place?
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  B_Deserter

  What presuppositions have you adopted in it's place?

  What makes you think any 'presuppositions' have taken it's place? Now I demand proof before I believe something (something consequential anyway, I don't demand proof when someone tells me they went to the movies), and I don't accept "it was written in a book a long time ago" as reasonable proof.
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  JimmyPage

  I haven't given up belief in a higher power but I haven't tuned out the atheists on the board either. I totally see where you're coming from, B. Well written explanation of your viewpoint.
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  outbackaussie

  I echo the other's who have said this is a well expressed summation of the progression.

  I found my way alittle bit more round about, but the conclusion was the same.

  I like how you said it though, it was much more salient than my version LOL
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  Elemental

  Well, I have read your dissertation and found it to be...amusing as like most atheists as your logic is and I will put this bluntly flawed beyond belief.

  The more I read your and other atheists reasons for rejecting God the more I come to the conclusion that they do not know what they are talking about. Granted, that is most of the world in general but atheists seem to be one step above the ignorance.

  However, since you are a person who shows that they accept logic, let's put your suppositions to logical observation. I will post your statements in quotes and explain where the fallacy is.

  "I understand how hard it can be for a devoted Christian to recognize this. He or she may feel that accepting the atheist position as a rational one is to denounce Christianity as irrational."

  The above shows your ignorance of the Bible and tells me that you have either never read the book or read at least never read it in detail as the Bible itself says that Christianity is irrational. Nowhere does the book ever state that Christianity makes sense from a rational standpoint. Quite the opposite actually as Paul stated that the Cross is foolishness (literal word in koine is Moronic). So saying that Christianity is a rational belief system is false as it was never meant to be rational in the first place. As a result your premise is flawed and as a result so is your logic.

  "Atheists and Christians really aren’t that different. I, like most Christians, reject 99.9999% of all the Gods man has ever worshipped. I don’t believe that Apollo tows the sun across the sky in a golden chariot. I don’t believe that dying in honorable combat will reap rewards for me in Valhalla. I don’t believe that if my corpse is mummified in the proper 70-day ritual it will become reanimated each night and I will get to have sex with the goddess of the sky."

  Another false premise as I do believe that there was a Thor, a Zeus, and other deities in mythology as did Justin Martyr. The difference was that he explains that these were demons. Indeed, to me there is no such thing as "Mythology" per se. What these beings were is a different story however.

  It could be that Thor was someone who knew how to use a lightning rod. Speculation? Yes, but no more so that your supposed idea that they could not have existed. In fact, it is logically impossible to disprove or prove anything especially in history as you can use no logical criteria to establish a basis of fact. To establish a fact, one must have "empirical, observational, repeatable evidence." Since you cannot repeat the event (as it only happened once), nor observe the event (since it is in the past and beyond your observation), nor empirical (since you cannot use your senses to prove said event) exactly how are you going to implement the scientific method for proof which you imply to be using?

  The point is whatever Thor, Zeus, etc were (whether that be demon, or man that people embellished stories surrounded them), the point is that I believe that the individuals "the Gods" did exist. In fact the Bible supports this idea that they were real. Whatever the case, your premise is once again false you have failed to prove they were false. I thought that the idea of "belief" was something that atheists tried to avoid as belief is "confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof. "

  You who come to me telling that you require proof now accept an idea that has none? I thought intellectuals were interested in FACT. Not belief.

  "On all of these possibilities and many more I take the exact same position as many Christians do: they’re ridiculous and I don’t believe in them. The only difference is that I simply go one God further. I don’t see any reason to believe the Bible over any other of these ancient mythologies."

  This once again shows your ignorance only this time of what the word Mythology from an academic standpoint means.

  One of the things that most people are not aware and that one learns in the Study of Mythology is that not all Myths are false. Indeed, I learned in college that professors are very careful to automatically associate the word myth with falsehood. The figure Robin Hood for example is a myth but some scholars believe there is a basis to accept that he existed. Hence, the words Myth and falsehood are in the true sense of the word not synonymous from an academic point of view. Since you equated the idea that all myths are false which is not the case, your premise is flawed and as a result your logic is as well.

  "I simply do not accept the Bible as the Word of any God."

  Nowhere does the Bible call itself the Word of God and the early Christians never saw it this way. To be fair you cannot be blamed for this as that idea WAS an invention of the later Christians. According to the Bible the Word of God is Jesus.

  Nor does the Bible ever call itself infallible and in fact the idea that any book has to be perfect to be from God is absurd. At the time of the writing the books were never seen as a single conglomerate work but letters to different people at different times. To be honest anyone who says that a book has to be perfect to be from God is absurd as it is not whether a book is perfect but whether the writers were telling the truth that matters.

  I can get you books today that are for the most part logically perfect and yet they would not be called the inspired Word of God. Indeed it is not whether the writers were perfect in every way that says whether they were telling the truth for if that were a criteria no one on earth today could claim to be truthful. The problem is NOT whether God inspired the book but in WHAT WAY did he do it? Where exactly in the account the the letters to Timothy does it say that inspiration means perfection? All it says that scripture is "God breathed." You ASSUMED that meant infallible just as you ASSUME that there is no God.

  However, what is a criteria for establishing truth is multiple witness testimony even if the testimony is not completely accurate. So simply put the Bible does not have to be perfect as it is witness testimony that establishes truth not the perfection of writing.

  I mean are you going to sit there and tell me that because some of the witnesses did not agree how the Titanic sank that it means that the event did not happen? (And please do not tell me that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John did not write the accounts in their names as I am going to tell you to get an education and do some research for a change.)

  " It didn’t matter whether or not Paul’s words about blood included transfusions or not."

  This one ALONE proves to me that you never read the book in any detail as Paul never said anything about blood. THAT was James in Acts. If you had truly read the book with any depth or thought at all you would have known this. All this proves to me is that you flipped through the book and then shrugged your shoulders and believed what you wanted as you claim Christians do. And please do not tell me that you did not require doing that as the book was so obviously false. Unlike you I DID read the book thoroughly coming from an atheist background and found that the book does have proof that God was behind it.

  "That’s why I almost find it insulting when other claims it was the Watchtower who turned me off to God. To me, it’s implying that I didn’t put any thought into it whatsoever, that it was an emotional response and I’m still under the spell of Watchtower reasoning."

  The funny thing is that from what I can tell you have not put any reasoning into ANYTHING at this point about this topic. Obvious errors and speculation is the best that you have come up with and to be honest I am not impressed in the least.

  Indeed, one of the biggest fallacies that you made is the idea the emotion and reason separate when emotion is the BASIS for reasoning as scientists are now discovering and something that I have suspected for a long time. You can get the information on this here. http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2007/05/vulcans_nixed_y.html

  I am rather disappointed in all of your reasoning as to be honest you seem to have none in this case. Rather, you like most atheists suffer from something called World View Confusion. Again to be fair this is something that many Christians suffer from as well.

  World view confusion is defined as "taking an account and placing that account in a foreign frame of reference." Something that every atheistic website has done from what I have seen.

  But again it is this contradictive thinking that has been the basis off most atheists for I have seen the following over and over again.

  They come to me telling me that my relationship with Christ is imaginary using evidence that came from their imagination.
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  JimmyPage

  Elemental's arguments here actually seem to add more credence to B's initial statements.