by LouBelle 10 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I'm not only talking about our former religion, but all faiths. Members will defend their faith, some very stubbornly no matter what evidence is shown to them, even if it's from the bible. Many a time they only want it to be seen their way and won't allow for another interpretation.
Does it stem from the fact that they are scared about being wrong? Scared of the unknown as it is all they know? Then what?
Do they really believe that God only inspires that certain faith or people from that faith?
I don't know but it's truly pathetic to see it. Arguing and quoting scriptures back at each other. Then they'll tell you how close they are to Jesus and how he showed them the right path.
Pathetic and deluded in my humble opinion.
I see that it is because of the underlying reason why people hold onto faith. There is usually an ulterior motive as to why people ‘believe’, and this might be because the person can’t come to terms with something in their lives that they are missing or in fear of.
For example, Reniaa who posts on this forum can’t come to terms with the thought of dying. The thought of being dead forever is one of the biggest things that drives her to go to the extremity of unreasonableness. Now she will claim that she is on here to correct the biasness of this site, but really she is almost obsessively fighting against the fact that we could all be right, and that her god doesn't exist, and that she will be dead forever. Now as that is a painful reality for her to face, too painful, she desperately scurries around to prove us all wrong, so that she doesn’t have to face the fact that she is going to die, just like the rest of us. The thought is so frightening for her to grasp, so horrific, she has to fight vehemently to prove us all wrong just so that she can gain appeasement from the thought of the reality that she will one day die and that this life is all there is.
So she can’t afford anyone to prove her wrong because this will shatter that hope she has, which would cause her great distress. So rather than face that she will fight to the (unreasonable) death to prove things otherwise. The horror of reality is what drives her fight against it and you can see that clearly in the way she posts and how desperately she is to prove everyone wrong, and why she has so much to say. Every time someone opens up the possibility that her faith might not be true, they are really stabbing her heart through, causing her pain inside, which she is going to have to defend herself against. So she does this using the denial that her faith gives her.
So she has very good reason to be as defensive about her beliefs. She just couldn’t face life without. It would be too much for her…..
There are other reasons to, but I see this as one of the primary reasons why people hold so tightly onto their faith, especially among the JW’s, and why they are to defensive when challenged. There is also religious pride and arrogance to account for (not said as a derogatory statement but with the air of being the ‘chosen ones’ in mind) which gives the believer much esteem. If that is taken away then the believer will first of all have been fooled and also will have a hard job coming to terms that they are just an ‘ordinary’ person, just like everyone else, contrary to what they would have thought while in the religion.
It is always interesting observing people when they do become dogmatic and emphatic, but usually you will be able to see the true seat of motivation underlying their defensiveness.
All religions are based on the story that we were born into sin. In order to survive, a religion needs people to believe their version of that story. To do that, they make people afraid of going to other religions or to abandon religion altogether. If a person is continually taught this from a young age, there is a pretty good chance that they will defend it.
For instance, I have heard many a story about apostates. I have heard this mostly from Jehovah's Witlesses, but even regular church warns against people exposing their doctrines with some pretty strict and scary terms (going to hell). In fact, the "sin against the holy spirit" is to become fully aware that all religion (to that particular religion, their beliefs) are bogus and start exposing their shortcomings. And it is supposedly unforgivable--so that people are afraid to look at the possibility that their church is wrong or even that the Bible itself lies. They end up defending their religion, because they feel that they will be saved only if they resist the world around them and the atheist spirit (which is supposedly from the Devil, intended to ensnare you and doom you to hell).
The whole Bible, and all religion, was written up to prevent its adherents from realizing that the Bible lies. This is also true with Muslims--their Quran also lies, but their religions all ban anyone from finding the faults and exposing them to other Muslims. They are also programmed to defend their religion.
In fact, if any religion did not program its adherents to be defensive of it, it would soon go belly up.
Why do us non-religionists get so attackative?
LouBelle,
I don’t think it’s just Religionists that hold on to beliefs that fly in the face of reality, it’s other groups of people too. Some people just happen to be stubborn and unmovable. I believe the reason it appears religious people are so inclined is because it involves a very deep and personal part of their life.
I have found this same tendency in others too. I had a friend at work, Marty, who holds very liberal views to say the least. I was one of the few people that would even converse with him, largely because he was so over the top, he drove people away, but he had like most liberals a big heart. I understand his passion, I was raised very much a liberal too, and I followed the party line that republicans were the devil, only democrats were looking out for the little guy, you know the drill, I had that viewpoint for most of my life. However, he was just so over the top and constantly bashing President Bush at every opportunity. He went on and on about how dumb he was, how he didn’t read, and how he never completed his military service obligation etc.
A little background:
Some of my contacts worked directly in the White House under several administrations, so although I’m not in anyway an insider, I often do know things that most people don’t know, or a lot sooner then most people do. Sometimes it’s interesting and very often it’s amusing. Like the time Hillary Clinton was almost shot by the Secret Service. True story, she flung a heavy ashtray or a lamp (I forgot which) at Bill during an argument and was about to send another his way when two agents, guns drawn, rushed into their residence and ordered Hillary to drop the lamp or she would be dropped. That tidbit came directly from the father of one of the two agents’ involved, who by the way Hillary unsuccessfully tried to have fired.
One of my sources told me Bush read over 100 books in one year’s time, several of them about Lincoln, he has a fascination with this historical figure, not sure why. Bush was beat by Rove who read more books. It was some type of a bet between the two. Again this fact flies in the face of what people commonly say about Bush. Granted he mangles the King’s English at every opportunity, (embarrassing to say the least), but I think he is far from the bumbling idiot image he is often painted with, some of it self inflicted.
Sorry I’m rambling; let me get back to my point. Marty was fully invested in the popular notion that Bush somehow shirked his military obligation in the Guard and droned on and on about it, because he was part of the Guard, all his kids are military brats, and helicopter or jet jockeys like Bush was, and now they are at risk because of the War etc. that Bush started. Days and days of this, I could take no more, and I needed to end the Bush bash fest because it was just plain annoying after a while.
I don’t even remember from whom I obtained it, (maybe it was a public record). In any event, I slammed Marty with Bush’s military retirement credit record which shows he did in fact complete the necessary minimums and even went a little over what he was obligated to do.
I said to Marty, "Do you think they cooked the books in the retirement system too Marty? "
He saw it, I know he believed it, and he knew exactly what it meant, thus crushing part of his little hate-bush world view, or so I thought at the time.
Here is the final point: Marty is a man that holds at least one masters degree in a hard science, is in his late fifties so he is seasoned by life so to speak, he is not stupid. That said, I overheard him in yet another Bush bashing session with some other poor soul using the same tired arguments that I had so completely demolished just one week prior.
Lou, beliefs are hard things to overcome, religious beliefs are often the most deeply entrenched because they have such great meaning to the holder, and in large measure encompass the holder’s world view. Reason and logic do not necessarily apply in these cases. It’s not a matter of how stupid, foolish, or ignorant the person is, often they are not, rather it’s demonstrable of just how powerfully we humans cling to things that provide us with comfort, security, and order.
Freeman
It is simple. The weaker your arguement, the less evidence you have, the more fiercely you have to argue.
It is simple. The weaker your arguement, the less evidence you have, the more fiercely you have to argue.
I don't know....!!!! That's a pretty weak argument.... I'm not convinced.......
Believe me, after years of running forums on the internet, people can get behind just about any ideology where belief is a factor, (not just religion) and defend it to the death.
It really depends on the person. Some invest a lot of their selves into their beliefs, and any attack on the belief is seen as a personal attack. As humans, we're unable to be totally subjective about anything, but some are less able than others.
It's just one of those things about the way we're emotionally constructed that gets easily distorted. But, the more we're able to see the other person's point of view, the more rational we try to be, and the more we TRY to be objective about our own thinking the less combative we will be.
One of the first things one learns in cognitive behavioral therapy, a therapy designed to root out faulty thinking that lead to depression, one thing you have to rid yourself of is this notion that to be lovable, everyone must agree with you. (Ironically, this "faulty thinking" check list was once printed in an Awake article about depression.)
I really think that's why so many Witnesses suffer from depression. They think everyone must agree 100% on everything to be loved by God and by each other. That's not only unrealistic it's CRAZY.
Humans naturally differ in opinion because we are all unique. Witnesses don't agree nearly as much as they pretend to about belief or anything else. They just feel compelled to pretend that they have this amazing (and virtually impossible) unity.
A Catholic can say "I disagree with the Pope about birth control" and not have to worry that he won't be thought a Catholic for thinking and saying that. A Baptist can say, "I can drink beer if I want!" and not have to worry about not being able to go to the Baptist church and be shunned for everyone knowing that.
Most mainstreams religions have the good sense, for the most part, to be tolerant of the differences of belief and behavior in their membership, even if it's outright disagreement with doctrine.
Notice that religions like Islamic fundamentalism are railed against more and more for NOT being tolerant of individuality. People think more and more that it's WRONG to be this punishing of dissent and individual freedom. Because deep down we all know how normal it is, and how abnormal to suppress it.
Witnesses have to deal with the same intolerance of individuality as other fundamentalist or high control groups and it makes them extremely defensive about their beliefs. They have to deny so much of themselves to adhere to it, they have to convince themselves it's worth the sacrifice.
They may not be violent about it (they can be, though) but it's pretty much the same mentality that causes a man to strap a bomb to himself and die in the name of Allah as it is for a Witness to refuse blood and thus believes he dies faithful to Jehovah.
Better and so much more emotionally healthy to just accept that people have varying experiences, personalities, beliefs and ideas, and to agree to respect that.
Groups, parties, religions can only define you to an extent...when they define all or most of you, the extremism begins.
I know how the opposite of defensive works. When I know something confidently, such as through direct experience, and someone wishes to dispute it, I do not feel any need to defend it. It is what it is, and an opinion will not alter the fact. So I will get this little half smile, and tell the person, "You can go right ahead and view it that way...if you need to."
