What are we waiting for now?
Why is god prolonging the suffering?
If Jesus Paid The Ransom Sacrifice 2000 Years Ago
by The-Borg 10 Replies latest jw friends
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cameo-d
And why are you still sacrificing yourselves...your lives and your time?
If his death supposedly freed you than why have you made yourself slaves to the WT? Where is the freedom?
Obviously, if you are still having to pay off your sin debt and are punished for each infraction that is slight of perfection, then what was really covered in this 'ransom sacrifice'?
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AllTimeJeff
I know this is a sensitive subject with Christians. I think these are good logical questions. To me, while I personally don't believe in this, as I think sin is as big a racket within most organized religion as it gets, I do respect Christians who choose to believe this way, esp if they did this outside of JW's....
That doesn't mean I think they're right.
When it comes to sin though, that is the subject I disagree with most, and it is the subcurrent under this topic. Without "sin" and a pissed off god, there would be no need for a ransom in the first place.
Without "sin", there would be no distraught people broken hearted for the smallest mistake made.
Sin is a control mechanism. Worship Jesus if you choose, but please don't let sin rule your life. I have to say, I do prefer the kind of Christianity that allows for "freedom" as some have described it. It's at least better then the JW version.....
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LouBelle
My personal views on this... When Jesus laid down his life it was a shadow of what we are meant to do today in a spiritual sense - die to the flesh and be risen up in the spirit (put off fleshly desires/wants/needs/trifles and walk the path of enlightment)
Most look to that sacrifice to wash themselves of their "sin" - give yourself as a living sacrifice and sort out your own salvation,don't put it at the foot of that man Jesus - you need to answer for yourself. You also need to have an understanding of what sin means - to some saying the word shit is a sin, to others not...that is why each path is an individual one.
Christ was a holy man and did what he had to in that time if he felt that is what he was called to do.
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WTWizard
I wonder why most Christian denominations, especially the Jehovah's Witlesses, still want their members to live self-sacrificing lives. It makes no sense for me to sacrifice money, possessions, happiness, time, sleep, health, or fun to some Higher Cause when Jesus was supposed to have paid it in full.
On top of that, his sacrifice was fictitious. God created this Original Sin crap so He could use Jesus' death as the way out. Then, He can extort people into obedience to His oppressive laws and regulations.
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Chalam
Hi,
What are we waiting for now?
Why is god prolonging the suffering?
2 Peter 3:9 (New International Version)
9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Ezekiel 18:23 (New International Version)
23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
Ezekiel 18:32 (New International Version)
32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
All the best,
Stephen
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The-Borg
Those scriptures don't explain anything.
I'll ask again why is a so called loving father standing by while his children suffer when he has the means to end said suffering.
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mindmelda
That's a question I've asked myself a lot. I get pretty mad at God sometimes for letting people suffer. I think that's allowed, no lightening bolts from heaven, not yet.
It's interesting that the Bible doesn't really ever promise us freedom from suffering or a carefree life, just the strength from God to endure it all. God never promises anyone total freedom from misery, pain or death, not in this world. In fact, it's quite frank that suffering IS part of this earthly existence.
I can only extrapolate that means that human existence is what it is at this point in time. Many philosophers a lot smarter than I am have put forth the thought that a world without suffering and pain is a world without challenge or meaning.
What seems to be important is how we all deal with suffering and pain of all sorts. I'm not blaming God for it, but it's definitely part of human existence. We cause a lot of it ourselves, don't we? Even when it comes from natural disaster, we make it worse by not helping our fellow man in his time of need.
What if God did wave a magic wand and remove all human suffering? It's kind of hard to imagine, but when I imagine that, I see a bunch of humans sitting around doing nothing much. We'd not need police, doctors, lawyers, politicians, news reporters, nurses, counselors, psychologists, consumer advocates, clergy...on and on. Lots of people would suddenly find themselves without much to do!
Have you ever been on a long vacation and finally run out of challenging things to do? People on cruise ships where there's the option of doing nothing but eating and sleepign often end up doing nothing but gorging at the banquet table and taking naps in the sun all week.
Aside from gainng 5 lbs they do nothing and end up extremely bored after a week of that. That's fine for a week, but living that way would be pointless,boring and a total waste!
I would like to see less suffering, of course, but I also ask myself, maybe it's not up to God to make that happen. Maybe it's up to us. Maybe he's waiting for us to knock it off and quit hurting each other, rather than taking the perogative of learning to change away from us and allowing us to learn to quit doing harm to ourselves and other people.
What would be better for human beings? To just have a better world given to us, or for us to work to attain it ourselves? You don't have to believe in God to understand that it'd probably be better for human beings to learn to QUIT HURTING EACH OTHER without it being imposed upon us supernaturally.
We won't survive as a species until we learn that anyway. We won't be worthy of survival or saving.
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superpunk
It's an interesting question that I don't believe there is any satisfying answer to. I don't even believe any Christian has an answer that he can satisfy himself with, as to a reason why God paid the ransom 2,000 years ago and has done nothing since then. The only step that can be taken is to believe God exists, and cares about the world, and then rely on the scriptures suggesting that God is not slow respecting his promises for comfort.
One thing is certain to me - I see no biblical precedent for God's servants being kept in such uncertainty for such a long period of time. If the Israelites were in some sort of bondage, their deliverance was either a predetermined period of time, or it was a short period of time (save for the slavery in Egypt, but I'm not sure that happened the way the Israelites tell it).
I guess you could assert that heaven is open now. Christ's followers are headed there when they die, and I guess they have this direct relationship with God after he busted up the Temple and allowed them direct access. I don't buy it, but there it is.
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cameo-d
If it were not for people having to "pay" for their sins, the priests could not have made a living.
It was a scam.
Popes and especially professional pardoners loved serial sinners as they could become a reliable source of sales and relatively easy money.
The Pardoner's ’ Tale in the Canterbury Tales by Chaucer reveals that commoners were living in a status of poor condition at the Medieval English period. The commoners were usually the lower class people and most of them were illiterate. To provide services to their landlords, they spent most of the time on doing the physical work rather than receiving education at school in order to maintain their daily lives.
....they were ignorant and superstitious that they always felt doubt about whether there is an existence of Kingdom of God or not. At the same time they also feared that they would possibly be attacked by the evil spirits at any time. However, they did not completely give up their eternal hope to be survived on earth as they believed in what the pardoners' preaching.
The Pardoners were religious and professional clergies who had authority from Rome.Whatever people came to him, their sins would certainly be pardoned. The pardoners were actually bad, greedy and cunning guys.
In many cases the preaching of these, out of ignorance or shrewdness, went far beyond dogmatic teachings; some of them even dared to promise that the damned would be released from hell. Permission began to be granted to Catholic kings and princes, particularly on the occasion of Crusades, to retain for themselves a rather considerable part of the alms collected for the gaining of indulgences
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence
Actually, this practice started long before any religious crusades.
In ancient times, when sacrifices were offered, the priests had an underground tunnel to the temple and would come at night with their families and feast on the "sin offerings". The dumb ignorant people thought the "gods" were partaking of their offerings.
As you can see from the above references, the kings took a cut of whatever the churches brought in. They were all wise to the scam.
And there is not much change today. Only a little more sophisticated and perhaps subtle. But the same principles are still in place.