The Kingdom of God - when in Heaven ? -- according to Jesus

by wantingtruth 23 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • not a captive
    not a captive

    We get it wrong if we try to NAIL IT DOWN for somebody else. When the spirit moves, it moves in each person's soul. Those flames of fire in Acts weren't a candle for one man to hold for everyone else.

    If it's all about the written words alone then many followers of Jesus couldn't follow him at all. A lot of his followers can't/couldn't read at all.

    I'm not so extreme as you, Terry. But in many ways I do agree, the Bible does become a tar pit for real faith--even Jesus said as much.

    And I read the Bible carefully. I think that Jesus cautions us about relying only on the written word at John 5:39--"You diligently search the scriptures because you think that by means of them you possess eternal life. These are the scriptures that testify about me. Yet you refuse to come to me to have eternal life." He was the living Logos.

  • wantingtruth
    wantingtruth

    Subject for study ... food still current ...

  • wantingtruth
    wantingtruth

    1) Are you saying that Jehovah's witnesses are The exclusive people of Jehovah as were the Israelites in Moses day?
    the answer:
    -- Not only the Jws.
    The gathering that started with Russel marks the beginning of God's people -- in the "latter days".
    The time has approached for God, to bring His Kingdom on earth , and that Kingdom has to start here within a people (of saints), so Jehovah God proceeded to gather His people.
    For a certain man , or group of men , to be considered "alive" from God's point of view , they need to "eat" from "Heavenly bread" - John 6:32,33,35.
    So , God gave it to them: Psalm 78:24 / 105:40b (prophetically shown here).
    What is the Heavenly Bread ? -- It is Jesus' sacrifice together with the correct understanding of how it works (a teaching)!
    It implies a correct understanding and knowledge about what is (both) the weakness and willfully sin !
    As Jesus teaches, after one's baptism/consecration , that "ransom" cover only weaknesses , while the christian person is commended to "clean" his hearth : see Mark 7:18-23.
    All these things listed by Jesus here are willfully sins , and are not forgiven after receiving "the truth"... see Hebrew 10:26!
    Jehovah God through His Spirit helped br. Russel to understand this teaching - in 1872 - and so, this is the very year of starting "God's people history" -- a year found not by some kind of chronology , but as a result of the work/action of God !
    God used Russel as "a prophet" ... see Hosea 12:13 !
    Starting with that time many persons came to a good relation with Jehovah God to do His will, based on a good foundation.
    So, from that time, all men that lived according to God's revealed requirement to keep "holy" (1Tess. 4:2,3,6,7,8,.) whether they call themselves Bible Students , Jehovah's Witnesses (included various eastern groups of Jws). or the disfellowshipped ones(still Christians), are God's people !
    Now, God was expecting from His people to be "faithful".... Isaiah 63:8-10 !
    But they were NOT! ... it happens like this : read Deuteronomy 32:15/ Hosea 11:1,2...5,7,
    Therefore Jehovah God decided to punish them - it is a manifestation of His RIGHTEOUSNESS! - see: Isaiah 66:18 / Jeremiah 5:29 /Deut. 32:19-21...

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    2) Are you saying that Russell and Rutherford were true sons of the Kingdom ?
    the answer :
    -- Russel and Rutherford had a heart that loved God, and they never taught others to sin wilfully , in spite of having many weaknesses , specially Rutherford .
    Jehovah God speaks right: Isaiah 43:27,28 !
    The main sin that God charges the two is : Jeremiah 2:12,13. Yes , they did not wait for Jehovah in giving the "food", but they mixed the teaching received by Holy Spirit with their own conclusions...
    So , a lot of teachings such as "the chronology" (the way to find these years like 1914, 1925, 1975 etc.), piramydology , natural Israel as God's people , God's earthly organization , etc,etc,... are NOT biblically and NOT from God !
    But because Jehovah God uses them to give food and warnings to His people, and they have not broken the covenant, He shows us they are forgiven through Christ sacrifice./YHWH considered they had a good/clean heart before Him .

    ##############################################

    3) Are you saying that 2 Thess 2 was then fulfilled when a group took control of the bible students and stood in the holy place?
    the answer:
    -- While Christ was sowing wheat , when "everybody was sleeping" the enemy sowed the weeds!
    Starting exactly with Russel , the shepherds of Israel were sleeping regarding to ... what is written in Hebrews 12:16,17.
    So, persons like Esau were "born" into christian congregation.
    They got numerous and became the "opposite side" of truth --the weeds. Because even the wheat sinned against God , He decided "a day" or a period of time to punish His people (the holy ones)
    That punishment meant to be : the holy ones had to lose the leadership over God's house and "the Esau house" gained it !
    the "7 persons-heads" that took control after Rutherford's death belonged to Edom.. they taught (indirectly) that Christ ransom covers the wilfully sin , that means they took away the continual offering ...see Dan 8:11.
    The "holy place: does not mean "the society WT", but refers to the spiritual Temple and the (kind of) worship there.
    So , the weeds were already entered or "sown" in the Temple , but when they took control of Society , and so , over God's people , they in fact elevated themselves to the position of "god" according to 2 Tess. 2:4 !

    ################################

    4) Are you saying that they tampered with the word of God by creating the NWT to mislead the sheep?
    the answer :
    -- Yes they "adapted" the bible to their purposes !

    #########################################

    5) Are you saying that this group is in fact the "seven headed wild beast" ?
    the answer :
    -- Yes ,they were 7 "anointed" which proved that have lost their anointment (or have broken the covenant) because of their works , and they became "the 7 heads"....of the beast, but the entire beast include all human - organizational structure that was imposed over God's people all over the earth .
    In fact , only people who obeyed and subjected themselves under the leadership of those 7 heads were allowed to be in "positions" in this organization !
    they all together are "the body" of the beast.

    ##############################

    6) Are you saying that all those within the WTO have received the mark of the beast by being baptised into the WTO?
    the answer :
    -- Not by baptism... but by receiving, believing and living according to the erroneous teachings proliferated by this "man of lawlessness" they have received the "mark of the beast"
    the worst thing (worse than changing the baptismal vow) the beast did, is removing the Christ sacrifice's meaning, ( "and the continual burnt offering was taken away from him" Dan 8:11 ) , saying and teaching that the wilfully sin is covered by His sacrifice !
    All persons believing that , loving that teaching , while they love to play with wilfully sin (and to practice it ) , are those with beast's mark..consciently .

    ###########################

    7) Are you saying that the two annointed witnesess were russell and rutherford and their preaching truth works were stopped by the beast ?
    the answer :
    -- I don't ! The two witness are two class/groups that compound the body of Christ: the "prophet" and the "priest". both being "wheat".
    Geremiah 23:11.

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    8 ) Are you saying that the two witnesses (the holy ones) will be soon given the kingdom when they are re-established and the beast is killed ?
    the answer :
    -- Yes ! the holy ones HAVE (need) first to be cleansed !
    and then the kingdom will be done to them! Dan 7:21,22,25,26,27.
    they have to be gathered ! Isaiah 11:11 / Ezekiel 36:24,25,...32!

    ###########################

    9) Are you saying that the only people who have any connection with this work are within the WTO ?
    the answer :
    -- Not only!
    But the most of them (the gross number) are there ... at the daughter of Babylon Zech.2:7.
    Also there are (some of)Bible Students and others , but it is surely about those who have "eaten" from Heavenly Bread ! (they are those who rightly appreciate what means "be saints because I am saint" as God says.

    ###################################

    10) Do you believe that the wild beast only dominates Gods household rather than the whole of the human race?
    the answer :
    -- Yes ! They dominate God's house , while deceiving the whole earth saying that they are God's people or chosen ones and Jehovah's unique channel on earth !
    They "interposed" themselves between God, His kingdom , and the rest of all humankind , and that happened in a time permitted by God ...
    this way they dominated all persons on earth who wanted to approach God and his Kingdom ...
    of course , those of humankind who were not interested in serving God , are not part of this picture..

    Dear , here is a "body" or a "building" of teaching ! There is a full bible and events to prove it ! Here I used only a few arguments ...
    See: Jesus did not tell historical tales to his contemporanes about Egypt , Babilon , or Rome etc,etc, as beying part of the seven world's Powers ... and much history...
    but He told them words that implied directly their hearts and their way to worship God , implying their responsibility before God !
    Each prophetical part He quoted, He applied it to them, revealing their state of heart before the Father and himself

    Today God's people like to tale about political beasts...because that not discover what's inside their heart !
    But today is a time to seek God's righteousness, by returning to Christ's teaching, to obey it ! Matthew 17:5.
    God's people until now were composed of two "nations": the holy ones or "wheat" , and the "weeds" or wicked ones ... Jeremiah 5:26 / Deut. 32:21.
    Jesus said (Matt 24:34) "that nation will not pass till... "
    He referred not to "generation" , but to the bad "nation" , the weeds . The wheat will not be able to escape from them (the weeds) until Jehovah will come through His Messenger , (at the second coming) , while all signs will happen! Matthew 24:32.33.
    He comes to do the judgement at The Temple and all his people , to refine Jacob's sons , to deliver them from under all Babylonysh slavery and then to give to them the Kingdom !
    The wicked nation is that: see Matt 16:4,
    the sign of Jonah is , they ( "the evil and adulterous generation") will see when God's spirit comes over the two dead witnesses and they stay up again ! Rev 11:11.
    While the wicked nation will be ready for destruction (even named themselves as Jehovah's witness), for the righteous nation today Jehovah is preparing something good ! see Isaiah 26:2 .
    " Open the gates, that the [uncompromisingly] righteous nation which keeps her faith and her troth [with God] may enter in." ...
    (where ? see Rev 22: 14,15 )

    Hope this help a little,
    wanting truth

  • wantingtruth
    wantingtruth

    Quote:

    WHAT is God's Kingdom ?

    According to Jesus words
    Matthew 6 :
    10. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done , as in heaven, so on earth.

    .. .we see that His Kingdom means the state where His will is done !

    And surely it implies a certain order made by God .

    This "order" means a certain structure of authority between God's heavenly and earthly creatures, of course , made by God, or according to His will ! "

    End quote.

    =================================================

    In fact God's Kingdom is God's (real) Organization !

    And this Organization is Heavenly, and it is still in Heavens .. as long as we still pray for it to come on earth!

    So, the fact of using the expression "organization" related to God's people is against the Scriptural rule ..
    let's read it in 1 Corinthians 2:

    9 But this is precisely what is written: God has prepared things for those who love him that no eye has seen, or ear has heard, or that haven’t crossed the mind of any human being.

    10 God has revealed these things to us through the Spirit. The Spirit searches everything, including the depths of God.
    12 We haven’t received the world’s spirit but God’s Spirit so that we can know the things given to us by God.

    13 These are the things we are talking about—

    not with words taught by human wisdom

    but with words taught by the Spirit

    we are interpreting spiritual things to spiritual people.

    14 But people who are unspiritual don’t accept the things from God’s Spirit. They are foolishness to them and can’t be understood, because they can only be comprehended in a spiritual way.

    --------------

    "but with words taught by the Spirit"— what are "these words" ?

    2Timothy 3:16

    "Every scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching..."

    ... inspired by God (through His spirit) ...

    Therefore, what God calls "people", "my people", even if this is "organized" in a certain measure, it is unscriptural to call it "Organization" or "God's Organization" !

    Using the word "organization" for what God calls "people" caused absolutely much confusion.

    wantingtruth

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    The writers of most of the NT imagined Jesus was coming to liberate Israel and kill their enemies and so had him say things like, "soon" and "you will see" "this generation" etcetera. To believe the Kingdom was going to be any moment is the very theme of the Gospels, Revelation and most of the epistles.

    It was their disappointment that necessitated a revision. The Kingdom was spiritual, the Kingdom was only in heaven, the kingdom was the church. Or in the case of Adventists, the kingdom is very slow. Pick one.

  • wantingtruth
  • KalebOutWest
    KalebOutWest

    When Jesus saw that he answered wisely he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."--Mark 12:34.

    The mainstream Christian concept of the "kingdom of God" is different from what the Watchtower teaches.

    It is neither located anywhere nor is it a future reality. Like heartfelt obedience to the commands of a ruler or king, the "kingdom of God" is having the grace to understand the law of God and live obediently to it out of love.

    The obedience of a disciple creates, according to this doctrine, a residency in the Kingdom of God now and forever. "Those who love me will keep my word, and my Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."--John 14:23.

    This is what the reference in Revelation, according to this doctrine, is talking about:

    "You...have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on earth."--Revelation 5:10.

    While this doctrine is highly different from the one Jehovah's Witnesses teach (and their New World Translation changes the wording in Revelation to read "over" instead of "on" so that the reference is to the 144,000 and no to the Church), the idea of Christianity is that Jesus Christ brings an antitypical kingdom, one with a constitution "written in the heart" unlike a Jewish earthly government that had laws written upon "stone."--Ezekiel 11:17-20; 36:24-27; Jeremiah 31:33; Hebrews 8:10.

    In Watchtower theology, the kingdom is still the same type of kingdom that it was in the days of David, just moved to heaven. And it "comes" on some calendar date.--Compare Acts 1:6 where Jesus implies that this type of kingdom is obsolete.

    But the other is dependent only on the disciple who loves their Lord and the grace given them in the relationship to govern their heart, much like a lover or the relationship described in the Song of Songs. It is spiritual and beyond reasoning. "Love cannot be bought. Any offer would be scorned no matter how great."--Song of Songs 8:7.

  • FragrantAddendum
    FragrantAddendum

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  • KalebOutWest
    KalebOutWest

    FragrantAddendum:

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    That is not, I repeat, not, the view of my own people, the Jews.

    The view of the "kingdom" or more precisely "when God reigns" is prayed for daily in the Jewish Siddur, most often during Kaddish.

    In contrast, as these various prayers state, it is when God will control all matters over the earth to such an extent that God will be recognized as King and all types of idolatry will be banished, everywhere.

    While it has spiritual aspects or dimensions, it in itself is not a spiritual kingdom like the Christian version. Whereas Jesus taught that the Kingdom does not come by observation but is within (Luke 17:20-21), Jewish theology refers to a literal planetary change for the sake of humanity.

    However, it should be noted that this view applies only to the religious among Judaism and not the secular.


  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    A year ago, I posted a comment on this thread that briefly described a process of reinterpretation that occurred in the first few decades of Christianity. It appears to be consistent with the evidence to suggest the movement spawned from a branch of Judaism that perceived through the OT texts that God had sent a Christ/Logos (etc.) and deliverance of the 'chosen' was immanent. Jews were believed to play a central role in the dispensation of world governance.

    Pretty early on both premises fell out of favor.

    It's my conclusion that the Gospel story was crafted as a didactic parable/tale that introduced and demystified spiritual concepts through dramatization for a later generation. The popularity of that story reshaped the movement in profound unanticipated ways.

    The Gospel/s generally depict the disciples as thick headed, as they served as foils for outdated ideas or popular misconceptions. Acts follows that tradition further (and also attempts to domesticate Paul and groups that he inspired).

    Therefore IMO, Acts 1:6-8 is a perfect example of a narrative crafted to polemicize against the outdated idea of an imminent Jewish-centric Messianism. The topic is shifted through the Jesus response toward a universal future objective, as decades had past and the church by then had broken from Judaism.

    6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
    7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

    To imagine the closest confidants and friends of Jesus, having completely misunderstood 'his' message, is to not understand the narrative's purpose at all. The purpose is that the 'Spirit' was now teaching a more esoteric message, past Christians were mistaken in their expectations.

    So, while, as was mentioned, the direction of movement was from a mystery/revelatory/experiential faith toward a formulaic text-based one; out of necessity the 'Kingdom' went from literal to metaphor in those same texts that cemented an orthodoxy.

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