Question about 70 yr. excile:

by whyizit 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  whyizit

  Was discussing how secular references point to destruction of Jerusalem in 586/7 with a JW. Used KISS method of counting back the kings from Babylonian fall (according to WT Daniel book on page 50-51, says it was 539.).

  Not sure what this person meant. They said I must think the Jewish excile occurred before the temple was burned. After also trying to claim there was another king no one knew about until 100 yrs ago (Belshazzar?), they also tried to say the Bible supports 70 yr. excile, but if the fall of Jerusalem happened in 586/7, then that would mean the Jews were exciled for 47 yrs., not 70.

  What??!!!!

  Can someone explain this to me, so I can figure out what the heck they are talking about?

  And I would love solid references I could have this person look in to that are available at any library in the USA. Don't want to get accused of handing them "apostate" materials, don't you know!

  Why is it that the WTS uses secular references from Catholic Encyclopedias, etc...to support all kinds of WT doctrines (many taken completely out of context), yet this one date, which is not in the Bible, cannot be supported by secular sources? HUH???!!!!
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  Doug Mason

  Whyizit,

  I drew a picture that describes the WTS's false reasoning. You will find my picture at:

  http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/WTS_false_reasoning_for_607_BCE.pdf

  I have a number of other pieces that you might find useful. Just go to:

  http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/babylonian_captivity.html

  Please let me know if I have not been of direct help.

  Doug
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  http://www.jwfacts.com/index_files/1914.htm

  What were the 70 years?

  The Watchtower Society claims that Bible prophecy would be compromised if Jerusalem fell in 587. Other faithful Christians are able to reconcile the 70 year period with Bible prophecy without invention of the year 607.
  
  Several Bible authors refer to a 70 year period, and close reading shows there were more than one 70 year period referred to. It is recommended to read several translations to understand the meaning of the following passages, as the New World Translation has particular inflections to support their specific understanding.
  
  Jeremiah 25 applies a 70 year period to both the surrounding nations and Jerusalem. The 70 years was the entire period the Babylonians were conquering "these nations" and the period of vassalage to the Babylonians.

  Jeremiah 25:11-12 "And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years."' 12 "'And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,' is the utterance of Jehovah, 'their error, even against the land of the Chal·de´ans, and I will make it desolate wastes to time indefinite."

  Jeremiah ends the 70 years with the "account against the King of Babylon". Babylon fell in 539 B.C. indicating the start of this 70 year period against "these nations" could have been 609 B.C.
  
  In a separate passage Jeremiah 29:10 refers to Israelites spending 70 years at Babylon. Reading from verse 1 indicates this includes the time period when the Israelites were taken to Babylon prior to the destruction of Jerusalem. Historians conclude this occurred in the year 605 B.C.
  
  Zechariah 1:12, Zechariah 7:4-5, 2 Chronicles 36:20-23 and Daniel 9:2 all refer to 70 year periods.

  Daniel 9:2 "In the first year of his reigning I myself, Daniel, discerned by the books the number of the years concerning which the word of Jehovah had occurred to Jeremiah the prophet, for fulfilling the devastations of Jerusalem, [namely,] seventy years."

  Daniel may be indicating the period from the first destruction in 601 B.C. Alternately, 70 years was the length of time the temple was in a state of disrepair, from the start of the siege on Jerusalem in 589 B.C. to the completion of the new temple in 519 B.C.
  
  Whatever the case these, none of these periods point to 607 B.C. and yet Bible prophecy can continue to hold true whilst accepting well supported secular history. Considering Daniel 4 is not an end time prophecy there is no relevance to the precise start and end dates of the 70 years.
  
  The bona fide reason the Watchtower rejects 587B.C. is purely that it undermines their basis for 1914. As proof that convenience is the sole motivator of claiming a literal 70 year period consider the enlightening piece of Watchtower reasoning for why the 70 year desolation of Tyre was not literal.

  "Isaiah goes on to prophesy: "It must occur in that day that Tyre must be forgotten seventy years, the same as the days of one king." (Isaiah 23:15a) … He says: "These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years." (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia's greatest domination-when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above "the stars of God." Isaiah's Prophecy- Light For All Mankind 1 p. 253

  There is no reason that this same reasoning could not be applied to Jerusalem, except that it would undermine the doctrine of 1914.
• 

  cameo-d

  The number "70" is NOT to be taken literally!

  The Talmud frequently uses the number 70 as a kind of stylized exaggeration.

  It is a non-literal expression meaning "a lot" or "many".
• 

  Mary

  Where's our "celebrated scholar"?? He's usually got his face glued to screen whenever this topic comes up.
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  OnTheWayOut

  My take is that the 70 years is literally applied as in the jwfacts link I posted above. It's not necessarily exactly 70 years, but generally applies to "the entire period the Babylonians were conquering "these nations" and the period of vassalage to the Babylonians." It's about 70 years.

  I say that because I believe the "scriptures" of Jeremiah, Zechariah, Chronicles and Daniel were not prophecy, but written after the fact. If they were written after the fact, but close to the time it actually happened, then the people who read the "scriptures" would pretty much know what the 70 years meant.

  It is no big mystery. If you ask when World War One started, it is accepted that it started with the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand, so an actual date can be set of June 28, 1914. But ask for specifics of when various nations were in bondage to Babylon and how long it lasted, over 2000 years ago when there were no daily newspapers, you will get different answers. Historians could say that World War One didn't start until a retaliation for that assassination happened, or when other countries joined in later that Summer, or even not until it really became virtually worldwide in September when Japan joined the list of those fighting countries, but History now says the war started on June 28, 1914. Perhaps history of the 5th and 6th Centuries BCE just told the tale of the 70 year Campaign of Babylon. Afterall, the 100 Years' War in France lasted from 1337 to 1453, (116 years) but "100" is what people remember.

  Nobody knew that Bible nerds would be wanting to know the exact dates of exact events thousands of years later and saying these things revealed some huge master plan of God when the writers/historians of the stories rounded the number to 70 years to include virtually the entire campaign, not just the captivity of Jews from Judah.
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  scholar

  whyizit

  The seventy years was a period of servitude, desolation and exile of the Jews deported to Babylon in 607 BCE until they were released from Babylon due to her fall in 539 BCE in the year 537 BCE. Most if not all modern authorities discard any notion or importance of the seventy years and thus use a chronology based on the regnal years of the Babylonian kings counting from 539 BCE which marked the end of the Babylonian Monarchy places the fall of Jerusalem in 587 or 586 BCE.

  The difference between secular and Bible chronology is one of methodology and the seventy years, WT chronologists such as the celebrated WT scholars insist that a true biblical chronology must factor in the biblical 'seventy years.'

  scholar JW
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  OnTheWayOut

  I think what Scholaris saying is that the Bible is exact and correct because it is the Bible. It must be.
  Other modern authorities must be wrong because they don't assume the Bible is correct and look at actual data.
  
  Actual data can be misleading. Just ignore it and rely on the Bible's infallibility. That's what he's saying.
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  Billy the Ex-Bethelite

  OTWO, It's not even about what the Bible says. That's open to several different interpretations. The 607 thing is about what the "celebrated JW scholars" say.

  whyizit, This recent thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/175650/1/70-years-3d-607 is the usual back-and-forth between archaelogical, historical, Biblical facts and JW pyramidology nonsense to support 1914.

  Wikipedia has a very simple, clear narrative in the second paragraph from this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem#Temple_periods . Of course, such secular sources simply seek clear, proven facts without the distortion of trying to remanufacture history as a way to legitmize false prophecies regarding 1914. Volume 3 of Studies in the Scriptures reveal a wealth of ignorance that "celebrated JW scholars" are still trying to whitewash today.

  B the X
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  scholar

  On The Way Out

  Post 8413

  Not only would Bible prophecy be compromised by the claim that Jerusalem fell in 587 or 586 BCE but Bible History would be as well. It is impossible to reconcile the historical placement of the seventy years without 607 BCE as the only beginning date.

  A close reading of all of the 'seventy year' texts prove that there was only one such period with the exception of the seventy years of Tyre. Jeremiah 25 shows that the seventy years were for Judah alone and that during that time of Babyloniah domination over Judah the surrounding nations would also suffer a similar fate of servitude.

  The ending of the seventy years could not have occurred at the time of Babylon's Fall in 539 BCE because the Jews were still captive to Babylon and Daniel 9:2 shows that at that time the seventy years had not ended.

  It is correct to say that there was a previous exile of Jews prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in 607 BCE but that previous exile of ten years previous did not begin the seventy years because the land had not then become a desolate place which was only fulfilled when in 607 BCE the entire population was deported thus leaving a 'empty land'.

  Daniel 9:2 proves that at that time of writing which was after the Fall of Babylon the seventy years had not then run its course but was shortly to end with the impending release of the Jews under Cyrus in 537 BCE. Your alternative interpretations do not make much sense for it seems that you are unsure about the matter.

  Daniel 4 is most certainly an end-time prophecy because it concerns itself with two things: God's Kingdom and the Gentile Times both of which are eschatological in focus.

  We reject 587 BCE not just becaus eof its relevance to the fufillment of prophecy but because it is a false date -false to the Bible and false to history and all secular evidence.

  scholar JW