I need some good responses to the excuse "The elders are imperfect"

by BonaFide 25 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • BonaFide
    BonaFide

    Please make them simple, I have noticed that some of my friends can only stand logic for about 30 seconds before they start changing the subject. I need some good questions, or points to make them think. I have tried my own, but I need a better response.

    Here are the comments my friends have made:

    "You know Bonafide, the Governing Body isn't perfect, that's why there are updates to the literature."

    "Well, the elders are imperfect"

    Responding, "Well, how do we know that Jehovah has chosen them?" is not good. It sounds APOSTATE. So please give me some easy, simple ones you may have tried.

    From this board I have gotten some excellent comments such as "Facts are neither negative nor positive, they are facts." That one is great.

    Thanks,

    BF

  • sir82
  • gubberningbody
    gubberningbody

    Were the Bereans noble-minded for measuring Paul's teachings to see how they measured up to the scriptures?

    Are we to follow Christ as one who spoke with authority by quoting scripture instead of commentary on scripture as did the pharisees or not?

    What does it mean to "not make decisions on internal questioning" as Paul spoke of?

    When Paul said "let God be true, though every man a liar", what did he mean with regard to tradition?

    When the scriptures say "Not to put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man to whom NO SALVATION BELONGS", do you suppose that includes religious leaders?

    When Paul said "Even if an ANGEL were to declare to you as good news BEYOND what we declared to you as good news, let that one be cursed." What are we to make of additions to scripture beyond what is evident to all? What then of "new light"?

    Are we to obey God as ruler, as did the apostles, or are we to mindlessly submit to religious authority?

    How is it that we can be said to "keep checking that we are in the faith" if we don't "make the truth our own" by taking ownership of the truth that is God's word, the Bible, in terms of our own understanding and interpretation?

    If a man says he has "new light" and he later says his light was not "light", but darkness, is he not blind?

    If we follow a man or an organization claiming to follow Christ, then are we following Christ, the man or the organization?

    Does following Christ have a hierarchy, or a queue? Or is there room for all who are toiling and loaded down to come to him and be refreshed?

    If the scriptures in Revelation say that "all the liars" will end up in the lake of fire, then how are we to feel about telling "theocratic lies"? Are they still not lies?

    To avoid following blind men into pits, what must we do?

  • yknot
    yknot

    Yea Jeff's thread is a goody!

    I plan on bring that up soon in FS!

    "The what if the Elders made a mistake.... then what?"

    "If you know the Elders are in err are you required to obey even if it means stumbling another permanently?"

    "If we are supporting the Elders by obeying their err are we as individuals accountable for stumbling that other when standing before Jehovah ?"

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    Tell them that the teachings themselves are false and start with the Trinity or the 144,000. Dozens of proofs can be found here if you read through this exhaustive list. They won't have credible answers and you will be armed to the teeth. Best defense is a strong offense, and don't let them change the topic and focus on you. They'll attack you or what you believe and sidestep their fallacies. It is a very common tactic.

    http://www.144000.110mb.com/144000/index.html

    Tell them if the light keeps getting brighter they can't have the truth. If they argue now that the Second Coming didn't occur in 1914 but lies off in the future now, then for over a hundred years it wasn't the truth, but false, and they can't have "the truth." Ask them why Christendom got it right long ago and ask them why it took the JWs 2,000 years to figure this out?

    Go to my website and the section on the 144,000 and use 4 or five points or more that prove the 144,000 cannot be literal. The proof there is very strong. Use scripture to prove your point.

    Ask them why the Society has mislead the Witnesses and public at large with respect to the Trinity and compare what they teach about the Trinity and what Trinitarians teach. It's on my web site. There is an arsenal of facts at your disposal. Beat them at their own game.

    JD II

  • Heaven
    Heaven

    "Well, the elders are imperfect"

    1) "This is no excuse for being irresponsible."

    2) "This would not hold up in a court of law."

    3) "Imperfection has nothing to do with being accountable."

  • startingovernow
    startingovernow

    If you control the information someone recieves, you restrict his free ability to think for himself . -By depending on the elders (not questioning their decision, excusing wrong and questionable actions on imperfection, not doing one's own research outside the publications) JWs are left to be led by people who will not take accountability for what they teach, say, and do.,

  • bluecanary
    bluecanary

    Agree with them. "Of course, they are imperfect, which is why we need to be careful that any mistake made due to imperfection on their part do not lead us to lose faith/commit wrongdoing/go against Bible teachings, etc."

  • Olin Moyles Ghost
    Olin Moyles Ghost

    If someone says that the GB, elders, etc., are imperfect I agree wholeheartedly. That's why John was inspired to write 1 John 4:1 which tells us not to believe every inspired expression, but to test it. According to that verse, God is commanding Christians not to simply believe whatever any purported leader tells us. If God wanted us to follow men, he could have told us to do so. Fact of the matter is that he did not. In fact, he did just the opposite.

    The JWs get a lot of mileage out of Heb. 13:17 about being obedient to those taking the lead, which is fine and dandy as long as those taking the lead are speaking the true word of God as stated in Heb 13:7.

    Any scripture that seems to require following men needs to be read in the context of other scriptures which command Christians to test matters from the scriptures and which require Christians not to go beyond what is written.

  • Finally-Free
    Finally-Free
    "The elders are imperfect"

    If that's true, then they are no different than the leaders of any other church. Why call one the "truth" and the rest "false"?

    Anyone should be able to use the "imperfection" excuse, not only JWs.

    W

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