In summary, "grovel before me or I will torture you for eternity."
Your god is a moral monster.
Jesus Saves From What? March 2015 Watchtower Article
by Perry 43 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Perry
Cofty,
I once briefly had the opportunity to assist in the criminal justice system. I saw with my own eyes a young black man who was offered 7 years for his crime as part of a deal his attorney worked out. He had a court appointed lawyer that cost him nothing. He would have paroled in only 2.3 years. He was very vocal, loud, arrogant and walked with a proud swagger.
He kept pacing & repeating : "I aint takin' nutin from dem. They gonna have to GIVE me my time.....I aint taking nutin."
He didn't want to be agreeable or make a deal in any way. He never once claimed he was innocent. He was angry at having to be accountable to JUSTICE, and outraged at the efforts of his attorney.
Given the stats of young black men from the ghetto, I imagine his mother babied him, let him do what he wanted and his father was never around to discipline him and teach him how to succeed. As a result, he was an emotional basket case.
The time came a couple hours later for him to face the judge WITHOUT the deal his attorney had worked out. He came back in only about ten minutes. He plopped himself down like a spoiled brat who was used to getting his way. He looked like a spoiled child trapped in a man's body, .... he just sat silently this time. I asked what the judge gave him. He said 22 years with a tear in his eye. I'll never forget that encounter.
God pleads with us to accept his Son as our Mediator. And after that, to be OK with accepting a permanently downloaded spirit program that will empower us to Love God and Love our Neighbor as ourselves. I found myself TOTALLY unable to do that on my own.
I was 40 years old, with failed marriages under my belt, a son that wanted nothing to do with me and a borderline addiction to alcohol when I accepted Jesus' offer of pardon. I was constantly mad at the Watchtower, harbored resentment, and couldn't move on.
After getting born again, I SLOWLY learned to trust and love God. Much damage to the ultimate authority figure had to be undone, I'm still dealing with some of that after 11 years. But that didn't stop the victories from coming my way by making peace with God.
I remarried (happily for 11 yrs. now), have two more beautiful sons, satisfying work, and I personally baptized all three sons last Spring. My oldest has accepted Christ at age 30. These are all victories in THIS life that are a direct result of making peace with God through the blood covenant. Something that was previously denied to me by the WT.
Many people are trapped in their hurt feelings from abuses by the WT and others. Our families reject us not because of us, but primarily because the WT has them believing that they need to reject us so that they can live forever. It is nothing personal, they just want to live. Can you blame them?
This is why my personal approach to JW's involves the Salvation issue. This is an easy subject to address with them, they are unprepared and wide open on this. Once they abandon the WT method of salvation, yours and mine relationship WILL BE RESTORED, regardless of where they move on to from there.
It is the SALVATION issue that binds all our former family members from enjoying companionship with us.
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cofty
Perry - Your illustration of the young man who had committed a crime worthy of 22 years in jail is bullshit.
You approve of billions of good men, women and children being tortured for all eternity for simply being rational enough to reject your particular set of superstitions.
I'm glad you sorted out your life but plenty people achieve similar results without denying evidence about reality and labelling the rest of humanity as worthless sinners.
You are promoting a cult of death.
However you dress it up the christian gospel is about the wrath of a capricious god being propitiated by the sight of Jesus' bloody corpse on the cross.
I used to preach it, Isaiah 53 was my favourite text
It is a spin on every pagan story.
Conflating god with Jesus - while pretending not to - changes nothing.
A deity who could invent hell is a moral monster and anybody who could worship and adore such a god is dangerously deluded. You confuse love with Stockholm Syndrome.
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GrreatTeacher
I think Perry actually just admitted a very important thing: that he couldn't manage to live a successful life on his own.
Doesn't this sound like AA when alcoholics admit that their lives have become unmanageable? Then AA provides the structure to get their lives back on track? Fundamentalist Christianity serves the same role as AA. It provides structure for people who are having life difficulties.
And when they preach, it's like they assume that everyone else is having difficulties, too. It's like it is relieving to believe and tell others that everyone is a sinner. I think that's ultimately what is so offensive to others. It sounds like an assumption that everyone's life is as messed up as yours.
Many of us have happy marriages, children and careers. We haven't ever needed the structure of religion to keep us on the straight and narrow, in fact that life sounds suffocating and detrimental to healthy living and happiness. We neither want nor need to blame the bad things in our life on Satan and we don't need a god to help us to handle life.
I can't imagine anything more miserable than being involved in the strictures of religion again. Why can't fundamentalists realize that their heaven feels like hell to us?
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flamegrilled
@Cofty
Perry - Your illustration of the young man who had committed a crime worthy of 22 years in jail is bullshit.
You approve of billions of good men, women and children being tortured for all eternity for simply being rational enough to reject your particular set of superstitions.
First of all your very first statement is not indicative of someone who has any room in their mind to reason on something. Both paragraphs are constructed in such a conceited way as to be self-condemning. I won't break it down, and this is not in support of whatever Perry believes about hell because I simply don't know. But if I'm not mistaken you considered yourself rational when you previously believed in what you now label as "superstitions".
Were you rational back then?
Note that I'm not asking if you were mistaken. I'm asking if you were rational. If not then what makes you think that you are rational now?
Your air of superiority is clearly built upon your conviction that you are rational, and that people like Perry and me are not. But it's a curious thing to self-examine and identify when one crosses the line from irrationality to rationality and back again - especially since it is largely based upon self-assessment, or endorsement from those who you choose to identify with. Your window for objective assessment is actually pretty small when you adopt the type of rhetoric that has become your signature style.
FG
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cofty
But if I'm not mistaken you considered yourself rational when you previously believed in what you now label as "superstitions". Were you rational back then? - flamegrilled
When I believed in supernatural things I was not acting rationally.
Neither are you.
I was able to sustain belief in superstitions by fooling myself that I had considered all of the evidence when I had done no such thing.
This is how Perry and most other believers protect their irrational beliefs.
Perry denies lots of facts about reality in order to sustain his religious delusions which include the eternal torture of billions of men, women and children.
This is not rational, neither is it moral.
what makes you think that you are rational now?
About 10 years ago I found the courage to squarely face up to the very best arguments against my worldview. No longer did I get my information from christian apologists but from the most informed and persuasive opponents of theism. It was a painful process but I was determined to follow evidence wherever it led.
No believer can do the same and remain a fundamental, bible-believing christian theist.
it's a curious thing to self-examine and identify when one crosses the line from irrationality to rationality
I have been through that. I understand theism in great detail. Not just intellectually, I have lived it and preached it. I would not criticise theism unless I knew what I was talking about. Very few believers have the same intellectual honesty.
To be rational it is necessary to take on board all of the available facts and reach conclusions that are in proportion to the evidence.
Somebody who believes in the god of theism is irrational by definition.
not indicative of someone who has any room in their mind to reason on something
I am still waiting on one single good reason to believe in the god of christian theism. I wouldn't want to be wrong any longer than necessary.
All we ever get is "sound and fury" and threats of eternal torture for failing to adore your loving god.
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Coded Logic
The contract is a legal instrument used to justify giving life to humans since we are all born dead in Adam.
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Also, what do you mean by "born dead in Adam"? Is this a reference to sin?
If it is a reference to sin, why aren't those who believe in Jesus now free from sin? And if this contract justifies humans having life, then why do Christians still die?
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Viviane
Given the stats of young black men from the ghetto, I imagine his mother babied him, let him do what he wanted and his father was never around to discipline him and teach him how to succeed. As a result, he was an emotional basket case.
Wow, what a horribly racist thing to say.
Have you perhaps considered that his parents were Christian and therefore emotionally and mentally stunted?
I'll never forget that encounter.
Since Christians, and you in particular, are also prone to lying, it's highly likely you've made that entire story up.
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Perry
Coded Logic,
Wow, lots of good questions. I'm afraid I don't have ALL the answers. This is what I believe is accurate:
Can you please explain what you mean by "justify giving life to humans"?
To circumvent the originally stated death penalty. First of all, I just want to say that neither me or anyone else makes the rules, God does. God is the one who says the wages of sin is DEATH. The biblical definition of death is the separation of the body from the soul. (see resurrection of the son of the widow of Zerapath in 1984 edition of NWT) Superimposing a naturalistic definition on a biblical term first mentioned by God himself in the garden of eden is inappropriate...just sayin'.
At any rate all are born to sin since Adam. We have a sin nature.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive - 1 Cor. 15: 22
Christ substitutes for the believer .... his death for theirs; if they want it.
And wouldn't any such a justification be necessary before our birth?
I'm not sure see your point. I don't think there is a moral imperative for God to justify anyone at anytime.
Also, what do you mean by "born dead in Adam"? Is this a reference to sin?
Yes
If it is a reference to sin, why aren't those who believe in Jesus now free from sin?
But they are! Man was constructed in the image of God a tri-partite being. We are spirit, soul and body. All are YOU, separately and collectively. Sometimes the bible speaks of the body as you, sometimes the soul as you, sometimes the spirit as you.
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved .... - 1Thess. 5: 23
Each exerts an influence on your consciousness. Originally, the spirit of man led his consciousness. That died and his lower animal nature took the lead.
We still are aware of morality and have very high aspirations,just not the means to get there perfectly. In the Fall of Adam all three parts were corrupted, body, soul and spirit.
When a new believer asks Jesus into their heart to live there forever, a new spirit is given that believer... an incorruptible one or seed.
It is still YOU, but a perfected You... the spirit you. This is the only part God can interact with the believer on
because the flesh and soul are still unperfected.... the redemption of your body comes later.
With this understanding difficult verses come to life:
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3: 9
vs.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1: 8
The first verse is speaking of the new spirit a believer receives when he is born again into the family of God.
The second verse is speaking of the still unredeemed bodies of believer and unbeliever alike. Both are "YOU".
And if this contract justifies humans having life, then why do Christians still die?
Only our spirits can be redeemed at this time. We are still waiting on the glorification of the body.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. - Roman : 23
Again, I don't claim to have all the answers. This is what I've learned since leaving the WT. I believe my responses represent mainstream Christian thought and sound historical Christian doctrine.
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Village Idiot
Perry, serious question, what is the difference between the spirit and the soul?