Christmas and birthdays...

by Celia 32 Replies latest jw friends

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  anewperson

  FRENCY, you said I lied about Job stating Job's kids had birthdays:

  Job 1:4 "And his sons went and held a banquet at the house of each one on his own day; and they sent and invited their three sisters to eat and drink with them" Job 3:1 "It was after this that Job opened his mouth and began to call down eil upon his day. 2 Job now answered and said 3 "Let the day perison on which I came to be born."

  You said what of the reindeer, elves and toys:

  The night before Christmas on 1822, Clement Moore, the son of the Episcopal bishop of New York and himself a theology professor, wrote the poem The Night Before Christmas for his children, published 1823 in the Sentinel of Troy, New York. Moore used the name Santa Claus, likely from Dutch Sinter (Saint) and Klass which is short for Nicholas. Dutch knowing little English but aware the original Nicholas of Turkey had anonymously left gifts of gold on fireplace hearths so that poor families would have dowry money to keep their girl children from being sold into slavery and prostitution started the legend that the original Santa Claus had come down the chimney, landing in the cinders, and called him Cinder Klaussen. Moore's poem popularized Santa famous, he named the reindeer, and made them fly perhaps because poet Washington Irving wrote a book in 1809 about a Dutch Colonist's dream in which St Nick rode above trees in a wagon bearing gifts. Elves are the only non-Christian element in that they were derived from Ireland's leprechauns.
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  anewperson

  FRENCHIE, To the above and also regarding "toys" for children:

  "Shortly before Nicholas's death on a December 6th after 200 AD, people learned he was the anonymous gift-giver who had brought such great joy to so many families, and om the 9th Century, the Roman Catholic Church declared him a saint, that is Saint Nicholas. His story spread, and French nuns in the 12th Century also started going out at night each year to give fruit and nuts to poor families with children on December 5 the day before Nicholas' day so that it was called St Nicholas Eve. In later years as fruit and nuts became more common the gifts came to include toys.

  Now what do say, Frenchie?
• 

  Frenchy

  newperson:
  I replied to the e-mail you sent me and was waiting to hear from you again. I see that you posted your mail to me on this thread so I'll post my reply here as well.

  Dear anewperson:
  Lying is a harsh word. I would not want to call you a liar and I did not. I’ve read those verses many times and many times in connection with someone trying to establish that “on his own day” must mean birthday. There is no substantiation for that claim and one should not arbitrarily present it as fact. I would not object to someone saying that “on his own day” could be construed as birthday but with the understanding that it may not mean that as well.

  “what of the reindeer, elves…” You make the point well that these fantasies came on the scene long after that angelic announcement. Those things have nothing to do with Christ’s birth. Are they harmful? I don’t think they are particularly so but the attempt to incorporate them into something to do with the birth of Christ is. It’s a corruption of what actually happened. There is no valid reason for mixing in this nonsense.

  “regarding "toys" for children: “
  Again, gift giving is a fine thing and I have nothing against it as such. “St Nicholas” was not and is not the Christ. Whatever he did should be viewed as just that, an act of his. It has nothing to do with the birth of Christ. There was no exchanging of gifts when those three travelers finally found the infant. They gave gifts to the infant. So if one would feel compelled to celebrate that event, the gifts should be given to Christ. THEN perhaps it would begin to approach what it is tooted to be, that is after all the other wrappings are removed.

  Thank you for your response.
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  anewperson

  You say give gifts to Christ instead of "people" and that would be more biblical but ignore that Christ gave countless gifts and not to himself but to "people." One gift was that of good health for those he touched. For some like Lazarus it was the gift of life. And he also said his followers should give gifts of joy such as inviting the blind and lame to parties. And of course at parties even then there were gifts if but in the form of food, drink and companionship. Christ himself turned water to wine at a wedding party in Cana. He also accepted gifts; or do you not recall that his accepting the Nard oil or perfume after which the disciples griped as it was very expensive? You also got an email because it could not be known if you would come back here to see this board, and since the same still applies I shall email you again to make sure you get it.
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  607BCisAbigLIE

  Frenchy:

  regarding this quote:
  "So if one would feel compelled to celebrate that event, the gifts should be given to Christ"

  It remember me of something Jesus said that COULD be (emphasize on the word COULD) about that topic: All you do to any one, you do it to Jesus.
  But i agree with your point, because we should'nt apply here everything with the Bible at hand 'cause you have to be sûre that the Bible is the truth, which no one can pretend it is. EVEN with reliable evidence, no one can pretend that the Bible is true in all its detail. But it can be in its real essence (not the one taught by WTS GB crooners), as to say that its real message, in my opinion (feel free to counteract it, 'cause that's the real way things comme clearer when you can oppose opinion to form a better opinion that can be counteracted as well), is a message of unconditionnal love (by the way, the Bible is'nt the ONLY way to learn about it, but one out of many) for all mankind. Everyone may be celebrating Christmas the way he/she want it to be celebrate as long as it stays a good time to party!!!
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  Frenchy

  Newperson:
  In connection with your recent e-mail, I have no objection to your posting it on the board and I certainly don’t mind you e-mailing me either. (smile) My comment was by way of explaining why I was posting it here.

  Now about the gift giving. I certainly have nothing against the giving of gifts. What I do not like is that Christmas puts people under compulsion to buy gifts. I hear it all the time about how stressful it is this time of the year and people are constantly telling me that they will be glad when it’s finally over. It should not be that way. Many people get into serious debt this time of the year buying things that other people would never think about getting for themselves. My point is that if you’re going to get right down to it you have to understand that what the magi did was not an exchange of gifts but rather gifts given on one individual…Jesus. People use this as a springboard to other things.

  607:
  Good comment. I believe that many times people get lost in the details of the Bible and forget it’s ‘essence’, as you put it. No one in their right mind can argue that the Bible is an extraordinary book. It’s survival all these centuries amid bitter opponents and even more dangerous religious fanatics who ‘mean well’ is proof of it’s being above the plane of ordinary. It’s not only recently that the Bible has been criticized. It’s been going on since it compilation and will continue, I’m sure, as long as the present system of things continues. Still…it perseveres. Is everything that is in the Bible to be taken literally? Certainly not, not anymore than in everyday life.

  BTW, unconditional love is a term that tossed about quite frequently here. Maybe someone could define this for us.
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  607BCisAbigLIE

  Frenchy

  My thought on inconditonnal love is a love that transcends differences between people, that doesnt demand someone to change any behavior at all, because nobody is perfect here on earth. Like Jesus said, we all should love even the ones that we perceive as enemies, although I know that is very difficult, but i think it can be acheived through tolerance and understanding of the other. That love will never be perfect, but their is no reason not to try to reach it. Perfection is not the goal in life though. And for that matter, my opinion on goal in life isnt a goal that some crapy rulers have predesigned for you, but one that you want to attain. Without any restriction at all.

  I hope that it will bring some light on the subject, and other conception on this topic is very welcome at well. it all leads for a better understanding.
  With Regards:

  607BCisAbigLie
• 

  larc

  Frenchy,

  I have some thoughts on gift giving. I think gift giving can be stressful if the size of the gift is what matters. If it is, as it should be, the thought that counts, then I think the spirit of love is there. Years ago, it was hard for me and my wife to put much together for our children, but we did what we could. Today, I can do more for my children, but even now it varies from year to year. It is the thought that counts, and Christmas is special to me because it brings our family together.

  I know we love each other all year and try to do things for each other all year, but sometimes, I think a special day is important, such as a birthday, Mother's day, Father's day, and Christmas. I know my kids love me all year long, but it sure does make me feel good when they call me, send a card, or give me a present on Father's day or my birthday. We all need special attention now and then, even an old crusty curmudgeon like me. I think special days are needed to help us remember how special our friends and family really are to us.
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  Frenchy

  607:
  Thank you for your response. I’ve always had a problem with that term. I prefer the term tolerance, with some reservations. Love to me is too personal a feeling to be applied to everyone. The feeling I have for all people in general is quite different from what I have about those close to me. To me ‘unconditional love’ would mean that I would love child molesters, murderers, rapists and the like. I can’t even tolerate such, much less love them. I think that love should be conditional.

  Larc:
  How are you? It’s always good to see your comments. I understand what you are saying about gifts. Christmas, as perhaps no other celebration, seems to compel people to buy inordinate amounts of gifts. I have nothing against Christmas except to note that it is not what it is purported to be.
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  607BCisAbigLIE

  Frenchy:

  Indeed, I agree with you again. That's making me think that unconditionnal love is impossible. Period. But I can give it a try, it doesn't hurt ( however, due to my poor human condition, and with reason, I WILL NEVER be able to have love for people who are child molesters (put it in first), murderers, women battlers, and the list of Evil-doing humans go on and on and on...). And you also say true when you say that we don't have the same kind of love for close ones than the one we have for starngers. But fortunately, despite a lack of uncoditonnal, I can say that love can be relative among people we know. That's not conditional, though; it's only because we don't know every one as well as our closed friends and loved ones. But for Evil-doers, all I see in them will always be Evil. And Evil is the only ennemy. And I will never have even love for them, cause they don't really deserve any small bit of consideration by me. God must be very kindfull in a way unimaginable to even have one small interest among Evil-doers.