One of many problems with evolution

by jaguarbass 12 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • jaguarbass
    jaguarbass

    FROZEN AIRCRAFT SHOCK


    I ' m still in shock! Are these aircraft found buried in ice, more than 3,000 years old -- or what?
    This news comes from the man who had the experience, Dr Kent Hovind. I think you'll enjoy it.

    THE FROZEN AIRCRAFT SHOCK

    "You're kidding!" laughed the lab worker. "Only 4,400 years ago!"

    "Yes," quipped Kent. "The surface of this whole planet was remodelled by the Flood only 4,400 years ago."

    "No way! In case you don't know, Dr. Hovind, I work at the Denver National Ice Core Laboratory here in Colorado. And we've been taking cores of ice from Greenland and Antarctica. It's dry, very cold, the glaciers are MILES THICK, but their annual growth rings are very THIN."

    He paused to observe Kent's reaction. Then he thrust home. "We've measured the ice, and I tell you, man, it's 135,000 years old! Your 4,000 years is a joke."

    "I'd like to see your lab," said Kent, calmly.

    The next day my friend Kent met the worker at the lab.

    The employee ushered him into the giant freezer which stored the long cores from ice drilling.

    "See this core from Greenland?" said the worker. "We drilled down and brought it up from 10,000 feet. See the rings? This core takes us back 135,000 years. You'll notice the rings along its length, dark -- light -- dark -- light.

    "Well, these represent annual rings, because in summer the top layer of snow melts and then re-freezes as clear ice, which shows up dark here. In winter, the snow doesn't get a chance to melt, so it packs -- and shows up as a white layer. These layers of dark -- light -- dark -- light, indicate 135,000 summers and winters."

    Hovind looked him in the eye. "Aren't you assuming those are annual rings?"

    Let's step back a few years, to the famous lost squadron.

    THE LOST SQUADRON

    In 1942, during World War II, some war planes landed in Greenland. When the war ended, those planes were left there and forgotten.

    In 1990, an aircraft enthusiast came up with the bright idea to find them and fly them off again.

    He organised a group and they went searching. As it turned out, they had to use radar, because the planes were under the ice, in fact, so deep under the ice, the men had a hard job finding them. Do you know, that lost squadron had got covered by 263 feet of ice in 48 years!

    Let's do some arithmetic.
    * 263 feet divided by 48 years, that's an ice growth of about 5.5 feet per year.
    * Now divide 10,000 feet by 5.5. And you get 1,824 years for ALL of the ice to build up.

    We should allow longer for the fact that the deeper ice is pressed into finer layers.

    Note: those planes did not sink into the ice, due to pressure on the ice. The ice had grown OVER them.

    ARE THESE ANCIENT AIRCRAFT IN ICE?

    Okay, would you do some maths? Can you work this out?

    The Denver National Ice Core Laboratory said that 10,000 feet of ice had to be 135,000 years old! So the 263 feet deep of "Lost Squadron" ice - how old should that be? That's right, 3,419 years old.

    Does that mean those aircraft are 3,419 years old? What do you think?

    HERE COMES THE SEQUEL

    In April, 1999, Kent visited Bob Cardin at his museum in Middleboro, Kentucky. Cardin had dug out and was restoring the P-38.

    You may be wondering, how did they get that plane out? Ingenious. They had melted a hole down to the airplane, broken it apart and brought up the pieces through the hole.

    "When you dug it out," asked Kent, "did you see any layers of ice, dark -- light -- dark --

    "Yeah, I did, as a matter of fact."
    "How many layers of ice were there?"
    "Many hundreds of them."

    HUNDREDS OF RINGS IN 48 YEARS?
    "How could there be many hundreds of annual rings in only 48 years?"

    "THOSE ARE NOT ANNUAL RINGS. That's not summer and winter," replied Cardin. " It's warm -- cold -- warm -- cold -- warm --cold. You can get ten of those in one day."

    And that's a fact!

    Yet, the scientific elite was still calling them annual rings in 1998. (See Scientific American, February 1998, p.82).

    Somebody's either ignorant, or lying.

    I'm worried. The textbooks you read today are textbooks not only about science, but about
    evolution. They're trying to sneak evolution in with the science.

    Sneaking beer ads in with football matches doesn't mean beer is football. Sneaking evolution in with the science, doesn't make it science.

    Are you keen to know more about this? Here's a place to go:
    http://www.beforeus.com/third.php

    Warm regards
    Jonathan Gray
    [email protected]

    DO YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS?

  • John Doe
    John Doe
    Okay, would you do some maths? Can you work this out?

    The Denver National Ice Core Laboratory said that 10,000 feet of ice had to be 135,000 years old! So the 263 feet deep of "Lost Squadron" ice - how old should that be? That's right, 3,419 years old.

    Does that mean those aircraft are 3,419 years old? What do you think?

    That's assuming that one 50 year measurement is an accurate average of the ice buildup for thousands of years. That's one big assed assumption. Furthermore, it's assuming no increased compression from the collective weight of the ice pressing down upon lower layers.

    "Yeah, I did, as a matter of fact."
    "How many layers of ice were there?"
    "Many hundreds of them."

    Why no number? Have you ever asked a kid for a big number and they tell you a gazillion?

    "How could there be many hundreds of annual rings in only 48 years?"

    Indeed. Why not give an exact number if this so readily refutes current science?

    That's not summer and winter," replied Cardin. " It's warm -- cold -- warm -- cold -- warm --cold. You can get ten of those in one day."

    Enough to melt and freeze 10 times in one day? I find that highly unlikely. This is a biased piece that is worth about as much as I paid to read it.

  • John Doe
    John Doe

    Furthermore, the title speaks of a problem with evolution? I didn't see anything discussed concerning evolution. All I saw was some dispute about whether ice core sample colors represented annual rings or not, and the age of the ico core samples.

  • HintOfLime
    HintOfLime

    From Talk.Origins:


    Claim CD410:

    Ice cores are claimed to have as many as 135,000 annual layers. Yet airplanes of the Lost Squadron were buried under 263 feet of ice in forty-eight years, or about 5.5 feet per year. This contradicts the presumption that the wafer-thin layers in the ice cores could be annual layers.

    Source:

    Vardiman, Larry. 1992. Ice cores and the age of the earth. Impact 226 (Apr.). http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=355

    Response:

    1. Ice layers are counted by different methods (mainly, visible layers of hoar frost, visible dust layers, and layers of differing electrical conductivity) which have nothing to do with thickness. These methods corroborate each other and match with other independently determined dates (Seely 2003).
    2. The airplanes landed near the shore of Greenland, where snow accumulation is rapid, at about 2 m per year. Allowing for some compaction due to the weight of the snow, that accounts for the depth of snow under which they are buried. The planes are also on an active glacier and have moved about 2 km since landing. Ice core dating takes place on stable ice fields, not active glaciers. The interior of Greenland, where ice cores were taken, receives much less snow. In Antarctica, where ice cores dating back more than 100,000 years have been collected, the rate of snow accumulation is much less still.
    3. A report of "many hundreds" of layers in the ice above the Lost Squadron may also be explained by the airplanes' location on Greenland. That location is relatively warm because it is low and more southerly; its surface gets repeatedly melted during the summer, creating multiple melt layers per year. At the site of the GISP2 ice core, melting occurs only about once every couple centuries. Melt layers are easily distinguished in ice cores. The more than 100,000 layers in ice cores are definitely not melt layers (Seely 2003).

    Links:

    Kuechmann, F. C., 2000. Creationist comedy. http://noanswersingenesis.org.au/kuechmann_cretin_comedy.htm

    References:

    1. Seely, Paul H. 2003. The GISP2 ice core: Ultimate proof that Noah's flood was not global. Perspectives on Science and Christian Faith 55(4): 252-260. http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2003/PSCF12-03Seely.pdf

    Further Reading:

    Seely, Paul H. 2003. The GISP2 ice core: Ultimate proof that Noah's flood was not global. Perspectives on Science and Christian Faith 55(4): 252-260. http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2003/PSCF12-03Seely.pdf

    Brinkman, Matt, 1995. Ice core dating. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/icecores.html


    I know, it's not nearly as emotionally charged and anecdotal as the little story. Just quick and to the point (with references).

    (And as John Doe pointed out and I was thinking.. what does this have to do with Evolution? This story is trying to support a Global Flood.)

    - Lime

  • HintOfLime
    HintOfLime

    I'd just like to point out as well, many of the early scientists were in fact religious, at least to some degree. Science does not have roots in trying to disprove the bible, or deliberately trying to weave some false picture of the universe to intentionally contradict the Bible. It just happens that way because the bible is not scientifically accurate. Science is seeking to establish in a methodical way "what DO we know?" When science is working, all the pieces fit together well, and when something is out of whack, the pieces don't fit together well (which is why research into gravity, dark energy, and dark matter continue as we speak).

    If our scientific understanding of how old the earth, various fossil specimens, and how life has changed through time on this planet were off by the orders of magnitude suggested by 'young earth' creationism... nothing would fit into place at all. Sitting through a biology lecture would be so riddled with flaws and contradictions every student (many of whom are religious) would be scratching their head and vowing to set the record straight.

    As the Talk.Origins response hints at... ice samples are collected from many locations around the world, and after painstaking research and comparisons, they have been used to reconstruct a timeline of global atmospheric conditions. I'll bet you anything that the atmospheric conditions suggested by the ice samples taken from around the aircraft (oxygen and co2 levels) are measurably different from samples taken at similar depth further inland.

    This is the difference between real science, and just taking everything at face value.

    - Lime

  • allelsefails
    allelsefails

    Are you trying to say Science doesn't always date things right? Duh. Are you trying to say that Ice rings disprove evolution in some way? Evolution has nothing to do with flood theories sorry unrelated topics.

  • nameless_one
    nameless_one

    "Dr." Kent Hovind is a kook with a capital K. Any assertion, scientific or otherwise, that cites him as the primary authoritative source is questionable at best (trying to be kind here).

    Also, as others have pointed out, this has nothing to do with evolution.

  • PrimateDave
    PrimateDave

    That link at the end of that article was a funny read! lol! " Jonathan Gray, international field archaeologist"? ROFLMAO! I bet Mr. Gray laughs all the way to the bank because there are still suckers born every minute...

  • jaguarbass
    jaguarbass

    Its got everything to do with evolution.

    If the earth is not old we didnt have time to evolve.

  • rebel8
    rebel8

    Wow, and that story comes from such an honest person too, and with such a respectable educational background.

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