@ LeavingWT - but if our basic human rights, as outlined by the UN, allow us to change or recant our beliefs without coercion of punishment, why are the WTS allowed to implement penal sanctions against those who do this very thing?
Attending another church is grounds for disfellowshipping
by passwordprotected 39 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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passwordprotected
Who would the action be taken against; the WTS or the brothers who sign the forms which class you as disfellowshipped or disassociated?
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Satanus
'the disfelloshipped person should be able to sue the Watchtower Soceity for hindering with their Freedom of Religion,'
If memory serves me, it's been done/tried, and failed. I don't have time, right now to search for this. Maybe, later, i' will. Perhaps, the turning of a blind eye to wt corp abuses is part of the american govt way of condoning the exploitation of it's citizens by corporations, whether through money schemes, drugs/medicine, media, or christian type religion. The us govt loves to see it's sheeple sheared, it seems. And, the sheeple enjoy being sheared, for the most part. Ie, people get what they want.
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leavingwt
penal sanctions
Please view the situation, not from the perspective of a shunning victim, but from an outsider perspective, with a view towards Liberty.
Individual JWs have the religious Liberty to shun you. This is a part of their faith.
Also, the WT has an open door. You can return to the fold at any time, if you VOLUNTARILY submit to the church rules.
It sucks, of course, for us, but that's how it is. The laws errs on the side of Liberty.
Just my two cents.
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Atomahawk
Password said: Does the religious group have the right to punish those who leave?
If you join a golf club and do something that’s against the rules, they have the right to kick your arse out, it’s usually in the contract. I assume it’s the same thing with any religion, you would probably have to prove that you joined without knowing the rules, which I doubt would be very easy, especially considering the magnitude of study and understanding that is required to join in this case, A verbal agreement is a form of contract and can be just as valid, unless you can prove that you were mentally inapt to make the decision. Just my opinion.
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keyser soze
Does the religious group have the right to punish those who leave?
Define punish. They have the right to treat that person within the confines of the law. That's like saying people don't have the right to be assholes.
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passwordprotected
Let's be clear;
- I am not suggesting that the religion should not have the right to eject membership
- I am not suggesting that the members of the religion should not have the right to behave how they wish, i.e. voluntarily shun ex-members
What I'm saying is, why are the WTS unchallenged on teaching that it's membership should, as stated in official doctrine and policy, shun those who wish to leave the group, join a new church or otherwise renounce their membership?
Bear in mind, shunning disassociated ones is not a matter of personal choice or conscience; it is official WTS policy and doctrine. Failure to abide by this will result in judicial action being taken.
Also, going to another church is grounds for judicial action and punishment. Failure to attend the judicial hearing results in automatic ejection from the group. That person is then subject to shunning, not just voluntarily on the part of those still in the group, but as per the official doctrine and policy.
Should the WTS be granted the religious freedoms they enjoy here in the UK and in the States when they do not afford their own membership such freedoms? Or do we continue to just roll over and wish the whole thing hadn't happened?
How many would leave the WTS if they knew they could and not be shunned by their family and friends?
And many shun family and friends, not because they actually want to, but because they believe it's what GOD wants, as told to them by the WTS?
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passwordprotected
Define punish
An announcement is made, "So and So is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses", meaning that thru their actions (and we're talking about someone who has left and joined another church, for example) they are now to be shunned, en mass, by those who still are known as Jehovah's Witnesses.
That is punishment.
Should a person be made to worship God in a way he feels unacceptable or be made to choose between his beliefs or his family?
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leavingwt
Or do we continue to just roll over and wish the whole thing hadn't happened?
I don't see any other options, personally.
Some believe that prayer is the most powerful tool. They pray that their loved ones trapped in the cult will choose the route of Love, rather than a route of hate and enslavement to strangers in Brooklyn.
The numbers don't look good. Prepare for the worst. Namely, that most victims of mind control will go to their graves, expecting to be resurrected into a Paradise Earth ruled by JW Princes. Moreover, they will derive joy for having remained loyal to Jehovah, by shunning you.
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blondie
I know it might seem a small detail but I thought it was "joining" a church that was a da'ing offense. The WTS theoretically holds open the door for attending a church for a wedding or a funeral including when a non-jw husband wants his wife to attend. So if a jw attended a wedding or a funeral at a church, it seems that they would not be considered as da'ing for that. Going for other reasons.........
*** w07 10/15 pp. 27-29 pars. 11-15 Responding to Your Conscience ***
Lois reflects on the serious Bible command, ‘Get out of Babylon the Great,’ the world empire of false religion. (Revelation 18:2, 4) She once belonged to the church where the wedding is to take place and knows that during the ceremony all present will be asked to share in religious acts, such as prayer, singing, or religious gestures. She is determined to have no part in that and does not want even to be there and be under pressure to break her integrity. Lois respects her husband and wants to cooperate with him, her Scriptural head; yet, she does not want to compromise her Scriptural principles. (Acts 5:29) Hence, she tactfully explains to her mate that even if he chooses to be there, she personally cannot. She may mention that if she attended and refused to share in some act, it might cause him embarrassment, so in that sense her not attending might be best for him. Her decision leaves her with a clear conscience.12
Ruth faces virtually the same dilemma. She respects her husband, is resolved to be loyal to God, and is responsive to her Bible-trained conscience. After thinking about points such as the ones Lois considered, Ruth prayerfully consults "Questions From Readers" in TheWatchtower of May 15, 2002. She remembers that the three Hebrews complied with a command to be where idolatry would occur, yet they kept their integrity by not sharing in an idolatrous act. (Daniel 3:15-18) She decides to accompany her husband but not to share in any religious deeds, and she is acting in harmony with her conscience. She tactfully but clearly explains to her husband what her conscience will permit her to do and what she cannot do. Ruth hopes that he will see the difference between true worship and false.—Acts 24:16.13
Does the fact that two Christians might reach different conclusions suggest that it makes no difference what a person does or that one of these two must have a weak conscience? No. In view of her past experience with the music and trappings of church ceremonies, Lois may sense that being present would be particularly dangerous forher. And her past interactions with her husband on religious issues may affect her conscience. So she is convinced that her decision is best forher.
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But would Ruth’s decision be bad? That is not for others to say. They should not judge or criticize her for choosing to attend the event but not perform any religious act. Bear in mind Paul’s counsel on personal decisions about eating or not eating certain foods: "Let the one eating not look down on the one not eating, and let the one not eating not judge the one eating . . . To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Jehovah can make him stand." (Romans 14:3, 4) Certainly no genuine Christian would want to urge anyone to ignore the guidance of a trained conscience, for to do that would be like tuning out a voice that may well convey a lifesaving message.15
Continuing this scenario, both Christians should consider additional factors, one being the impact on others. Paul counseled us: "Make this your decision, not to put before a brother a stumbling block or a cause for tripping." (Romans 14:13) Lois may know that similar situations have caused much upset in the congregation or in her family, and what she does may significantly impact her children. In contrast, Ruth may be aware that similar choices have not caused disturbance in the congregation or in the community. Both women—and all of us—should recognize that a properly trained conscience is sensitive to the impact on others. Jesus said: "Whoever stumbles one of these little ones who put faith in me, it is more beneficial for him to have hung around his neck a millstone such as is turned by an ass and to be sunk in the wide, open sea." (Matthew 18:6) If a person ignores the issue of stumbling others, he might come to have a defiled conscience, as did some Christians on Crete.*** w02 5/15 p. 28 Questions From Readers ***
Would it be advisable for a true Christian to attend a funeral or a wedding in a church?
Our taking part in any form of false religion is displeasing to Jehovah and must be avoided. (2 Corinthians 6:14-17; Revelation 18:4) A church funeral is a religious service that likely involves a sermon advocating such unscriptural ideas as the immortality of the soul and a heavenly reward for all good people. It may also include such practices as making the sign of the cross and joining in prayer with the priest or minister. Prayers and other religious exercises contrary to Bible teaching may also be a part of a religious wedding ceremony held in a church or elsewhere. Being in a group where everyone else is engaging in a false religious act, a Christian may find it difficult to resist the pressure to join in. How unwise to expose oneself to such pressure!
What if a Christian feels obligated to attend a funeral or a wedding held in a church? An unbelieving husband, for example, may urge his Christian wife to be with him on such an occasion. Could she join him as a quiet observer? Out of regard for her husband’s wishes, the wife may decide to go with him, being determined not to share in any religious ceremonies. On the other hand, she may decide not to go, reasoning that the emotional pressure of the circumstances could prove to be too much for her, perhaps causing her to compromise godly principles. The decision would be hers to make. She definitely would want to be settled in her heart, having a clean conscience.—1 Timothy 1:19.
In any case, it would be to her advantage to explain to her husband that she could not conscientiously share in any religious ceremonies or join in the singing of hymns or bow her head when prayer is offered. On the basis of her explanation, he may conclude that his wife’s presence could give rise to a situation that might be unpleasant to him. He may choose to go alone out of love for his wife, respect for her beliefs, or a desire to avoid any embarrassment. But if he insists that she go with him, she might go as a mere observer.
Not to be overlooked is the effect our attending a service in a religious building might have on fellow believers. Could it injure the conscience of some? Might their resistance to avoid engaging in idolatry be weakened? "Make sure of the more important things," admonishes the apostle Paul, "so that you may be flawless and not be stumbling others up to the day of Christ."—Philippians 1:10.
If the occasion involves a close fleshly relative, there may be additional family pressures. In any case, a Christian must carefully weigh all the factors involved. Under certain circumstances he or she may conclude that no difficulties would arise from attending a church funeral or wedding as an observer. However, the circumstances may be such that by attending, the likely injury to one’s own conscience or to that of others would outweigh the possible benefits of being present. Whatever the situation, the Christian should make sure that the decision will not interfere with his preserving a good conscience before God and men.
*** w70 3/15 pp. 191-192 Questions From Readers ***Some dedicated Christians have attended church funerals because they wanted to stay close to the immediate family and support them. So they went to the funeral parlor, to the church funeral and then even to the grave. They might have been able to do all that without personally committing any false religious act. There are, of course, spiritual hazards in going to any place of false worship.
True, a Christian wife whose husband is an unbeliever and who wants her to attend a church funeral might look to the example of Naaman. He was the Syrian general who was cured of leprosy by bathing himself seven times in the Jordan River at the command of the prophet Elisha. Because of this miraculous cure Naaman was determined never to worship any other god than Jehovah. But that would be a hard thing for him to do because he was still in the service of his king. He helped the king get around and so would have to go with him into the house of the pagan god Rimmon. He might even have to help the king bow down. So he asked that Jehovah God forgive him and not hold this against him. Naaman, who had become a true worshiper of Jehovah, was not himself worshiping this false god; he was only there under orders.—2 Ki. 5:1-19.
And so with the Christian wife who has an unbelieving husband. If her husband insisted that on a certain occasion she go with him to a church funeral of a relative or family friend she might feel that she could act in a way similar to that in which Naaman did—be present on that occasion but not share in any acts of false religion. But whether she went would be up to her to decide. She would have to resolve the conflict between respect for her husband’s wishes and obedience to Jehovah and the dictates of her conscience, trained by God’s Word.—1 Pet. 3:16.