Unloaded on the husband of my wife's study sister last night, how much damage did I do to myself??

by insearchoftruth 65 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  Sounds like a fun conversation! I have a couple of thoughts. First, the JW "teachers" almost certainly identified your arguments as "apostate" and will likely warn your wife that you are using apostate reasoning. That's JW-speak for someone who asks questions that they can't answer. It wouldn't surprise me if the JW backs off from trying to have Bible discussions with you. The excuse may be that you're not honest-hearted (which is JW-speak for gullible).

  That's how JWs work. They love to have Bible discussions with people. But if you don't fall in line with their point of view after a few discussions, they lose patience with you. Of course, that's my personal experience and your mileage may vary.

  And I love the way you ended your conversation with the question about whether we could still be friends. He answered that he could no longer maintain a friendship, since we would no longer have a common belief. Perhaps a response could be: "do you consider me a friend today?" He would probably say yes. You could reply, "but we don't have a common belief today, so what's the difference?" Or something like that.
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  LUKEWARM

  I think you did a great job !!!

  Agree!! Well done and I think he will give some of those questions further thought...
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  OUTLAW

  When we further talked about some of the good things about the JWs he again brought up just how wonderful the JWs are with respect to families, I said that they seem to be pretty good this way, but once again brought up the disfellowshipping and shunning, how could casting out a family member in need be considered good for the family……and brought up how my wife if she were to become a JW would no longer be able to talk to her mother who has been disfellowshipped........................................................................................................ If I were to become on of Jehovah’s Witnesses and a few years down the road, decide it was not for me and decide to join another church, could we still be friends. He really squirmed and first asked what the reason would be, I said merely a hypothetical situation and he finally stated that if I were to disassociate myself, he could no longer maintain a friendship, since we would no longer have a common belief, he asked if I would have friends outside of my belief structure and I told him I already do and if someone is a real friend, it makes no difference to me what their beliefs are and that my belief is strong enough to stay firm……............................................................ . The man has no problem holding 2 conflicting view points..Just another JW Bullshit Artist..... ................OUTLAW
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  startingovernow

  I'm curious why you think youv'e done damage to yourself. Sounds like you finally asked the questions that need to be asked. I wasn't aware that your wife's mother is DFd. Why would she want to get involved in a religion that would lead to shunning her own mother? And have you talked to the mother to get an idea of what life as a JW and a DFd JW is?
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  darkl1ght3r

  LOL Good job ISOT. You know his religion better than he does! He was probably thinking it would go like a typical DC demonstration. "Now, let's look on brothers as our Elder here answers this obstinate husbands questions by 'handeling the word of truth aright." He thought you were gonna ask, you know: What happens to the soul when we die? Isn't Jesus God? Will this world survive? What is God's name? Look! A body of water! What prevents me from getting baptized? ... No! Wait!!! You're not following the script! I don't know what to do!!!

  Good job making the cult recruiter squirm. The only damamge done was to his ego and his confidence on the org.
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  insearchoftruth

  A couple of more things I forgot to mention, he kept trying to mention how the JWs learn and refine....I asked him if the Bible changes, of course he said it does not. So I discussed how I understand that people may refine thier thoughts and interpretations, but what I really did not understand is some of the flip flops......well he of course asked what I meant so since we were talking about blood and medicine, I asked about organ transplants and he said from what he knows, they are allowed, as long as without blood (which I know is not possible). So I asked him if he realized an organ transplant was at one time considered cannabalism, and he was surprised by this and made some comment how he could not answer for things from the early 1900s, at that time I told him at that time they were most likely acceptable, it was around the late 1960s and most of the 1970s they were prohibited.

  I also asked a hypothetical question along these lines, firstly what would be the outcome if a JW took an organ transplant when they were prohibited, and then the understanding of the bible changes to allow an organ transplant, would the person be brought back into the fold, he proceeded to state that a person would not be disfellowshipped for an organ transplant or even today for a blood transfusion if they showed sincere remorse which can only be judged by Jehovah. I also asked the complimentary issue, what if a JW died due to not taking an organ transplant and then the doctrine changed to allow, how does that show the love of Jehovah, well he said there is no guaranty that the organ transplant would have saved the person's life to begin with, which is true, but the chances of survival would have gone from essentially zero to something much greater than zero!!

  While we were on the topic of blood, I asked him why JWs are not required to eat kosher meat, since there is no guarantee that non-kosher meat is blood free....no answer....and then I mentioned that even the Jews who are required to follow kosher practices are allowed blood transfusions....no answer again.

  While we were on new light stuff, I also asked him why they had to revert to a previously used definition of generation.....once again, no comment.

  He tried to talk about changes and how wonderful it is the WTS is willing to learn and change, but then I asked him why if the Bible does not change, why did the JWs change their teachings at one time from one that was compliant with what the Bible teaches, only to eventually revert back to what they changed from.

  He really seemed to have it out for the Catholics (as many JWs do) so at that time he went on with how bad it is that some churches worship Mary and have a pope who they believe is descended from Peter.....after a moment of silence I told him I have been reading some of my wife's watchtowers and from what I see the governing body is taking a position of glory very similar to what he said the pope has taken......he just looked at me puzzled...again...

  He defended against a lot of what I had said by talking about new light and such, but I think he was amazed to hear some of the things about the WTS that I mentioned.....I am sure he will be either much better prepared, or most likely not alone next time he comes to visit...which I would not mind being never.......

  I feel I should have let up a bit earlier, but it was just too easy.....they provide so much ammunition in thier own writings.
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  undercover

  Good job.

  I wouldn't call it "unloading" on anyone. Someone's trying to sell you a product. You're not sold on that product yet. You've got questions....you ask them. You bring up the flaws in design and complaints from people who purchased the product.

  Everyone should be so inquisitive of any organization that promises so much.

  I second what startingovernow asked, how is this damaging to you? You're not a JW, you're still an outsider, so to speak. Either the guy decides that your not honest-hearted enough (using OMG's reference) and he'll quit bugging you or he'll keep at you, thinking that you're asking all these questions means you're interested (though if you exposed some flaws in doctrine and practices I doubt that).

  The worst that can happen is that they'll work harder at converting your wife. That's where you need to keep an eye on them. If they sense your opposition but think they can win her over, they'll warn her against your ways of thinking. They'll drive a wedge between you two. It's not on purpose...it's just the way they're trained to think and respond to the situation. They honestly think they're doing the right thing, but it doesn't change the fact that they're interfering and causing a disturbance in you marriage that you do not welcome.

  Any opposition of yours to her studying is going to be sold to her as persecution. They'll paint it as if Satan is trying to keep her from studying. Here's where you'll have to counter with logic and reasoning on many of the things you've already exposed.

  Good luck...I hope you can keep your wife out of their clutches.
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  yknot

  

  Ugh "Mary Worship!"....... I hate how the WTS & certain JWs keep portraying various denominations unrealistically!

  Sounds like this fellow is fairly "young" in the organization if he didn't know about organ transplants (MOC circa 80s) and 1918-1919!

  I think you did a fabulous job! I sincerely hope you upbuild your stepson during this time with the truth about the troof too!

  All in all it sounds like you gave him a great schooling!
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  insearchoftruth

  Sounds like this fellow is fairly "young" in the organization if he didn't know about organ transplants (MOC circa 80s) and 1918-1919!

  Actually he is a born in.....he talks a good game about reading the bible and how one needs to be in accordance with the bible principles, but I think his wife is the super JW, he is just along for the ride and most likely enjoying being the man........

  Yep, he sure portrayed Catholicism in a very negative light, but from what I understand, they like to do that....I was really amazed how he looked so perplexed at me when I made some comments, and then when I told him the information I have is from WT literature, it sort of took him back....
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  OUTLAW

  Everytime a JW is losing an arguement,they start bashing Catholics......What do Catholics have to do with JW problems?..............OUTLAW