by frankiespeakin 25 Replies latest jw friends
So, if you are disciplined in your usage, psychedelics can get you on the road to enlightenment, get you part way there, and even give you a taste. But, it may be that, to go all the way, you need to proceed without enhancements, as the enhancements may be distractions, ripples on the pond, that perturb your vision. My observation, at this point.
S
Poppers,
I guess I like doing it the lazy way, meditation seems so time consuming, and I'm not a very good meditator. As to what levels of enlightenment I'm reaching is not that important to me they have helped me in so many ways I'm content.
As far as getting attached to the mystical experiences, I find them interesting, but each time I take what ever, it is something new with no longing to experience the same experience.
Well I'll definitely agree that feeling like you're going to lose yourself is downright scary. It should be. What is so wrong about cherishing our individual consciousness? A few hallucinogens that seem to help people detach from their ego are probably doing funky things in the temporal lobes. So I have to doubt that the drugs are actually aiding one to perceive another external layer to reality.
I'm not entirely skeptical about the tenets and basic realizations buddhism aims a person to learn. But I'm just not fully persuaded either. Meditating without drugs, could just be training our brain to fire certain neuro-cascades and affect our perception. However, why I feel meditating is the superior path, even though longer is because we have much fuller control in shaping the outcome and have the time to make changes to ensure it. Drugs can have nasty unexpected results. AKA acid trips and flashbacks.
So, if you are disciplined in your usage, psychedelics can get you on the road to enlightenment, get you part way there, and even give you a taste. But, it may be that, to go all the way, you need to proceed without enhancements, as the enhancements may be distractions, ripples on the pond, that perturb your vision. My observation, at this point.
Yes.
I guess I like doing it the lazy way, meditation seems so time consuming, and I'm not a very good meditator. As to what levels of enlightenment I'm reaching is not that important to me they have helped me in so many ways I'm content.
Meditation isn't really necessary, but if you do meditate be willing to let go of the process/technique and just "be" without trying to be anything in particular - in other words, the ego entity can become identified with the technique and create a subset of itself, a "meditator", so that is something to be alert for. What's vital is seeing that "You" are no thought/mind based entity. Self-inquiry can be an aid in this. Investigate your true nature by asking, "What am I reallly?", and then look honestly. Discard all those things that you are not; what remains is what you are. It may be helpful to do this while sitting quietly with eyes closed. Anything that comes up in the mind will not be "You". This would include any "idea of me", any "image of me", any sensation of "me", or any physical aspect, ie the body. What comes and goes cannot be "You" - "You" must be that which always is always here, remaining fully present. What is that? See if you can find out just what that is. Hint - it is nothing mysterious or alien; it is silent, still, peaceful, and awake.
As far as getting attached to the mystical experiences, I find them interesting, but each time I take what ever, it is something new with no longing to experience the same experience.
That's fine. But "interesting" things capture the imagination all too easily, so it's easy to get sidetracked by such things. Be alert for that, too. Perhaps while on something you can do some investigation, too. Ask, "What is this experience happening in?" or "What is real and present - this experience or that which witnesses this experience? What is this that sees this experience?" Remember, anything that comes and goes is only an experience; "You", however, never come and go - "You" are always here.
Well I'll definitely agree that feeling like you're going to lose yourself is downright scary. It should be. What is so wrong about cherishing our individual consciousness? A few hallucinogens that seem to help people detach from their ego are probably doing funky things in the temporal lobes. So I have to doubt that the drugs are actually aiding one to perceive another external layer to reality.
I agree. Hallucinogenic drugs affect the brain and cause certain distortions of perception. But "You" are not part of any perception, you are no object that can be perceived. "You" are Consciousness ItSelf. There is no "individual" consciousness, no "me" having a separate consciousness.
I'm not entirely skeptical about the tenets and basic realizations buddhism aims a person to learn. But I'm just not fully persuaded either. Meditating without drugs, could just be training our brain to fire certain neuro-cascades and affect our perception.
I agree. Meditation does change brainwave functioning and can produce chemical changes as well that can induce mystical experience. Many people get caught up in meditation just for those kinds of experiences. But they aren't directly related to "enlightenment". There can be enlightenment without any such experience ever occuring.
However, why I feel meditating is the superior path, even though longer is because we have much fuller control in shaping the outcome and have the time to make changes to ensure it. Drugs can have nasty unexpected results. AKA acid trips and flashbacks.
I also agree with this; they are inherently dangerous and unnecessary. I wouldn't advocate or promote hallucinogens for the purpose of enlightenment; nonetheless, they are an avenue that can point one in the direction of enlightenment. Unfortunately, too many people who use them fall victim to them. My advice is to stay away from them entirely.
Hallucinogenics can help some persons to break with the feeling of separateness that we all feel. They can help one to feel the connection we have with the divine spark present in all living things.
It would depend a lot on the reasons for the use of these natural substances and the setting chosen.
I would not recommend them for recreational use, but they have and can play a part in a spiritual quest for enlightenment.
Certain drugs can take every day mundane situations and give us a completely different realisation.
So it's not so much the drug that is important, it is our realisation that what we perceive as "real and absolute" is not necessarily correct.
Once that has sunk in there is no further need for the drug.
So if enlightenment is just coming to realize one's true reality and its just about knowing that, then I can see how using a drug or some other method to achieve it once can be acceptable to some.
But isn't enlightenment about achieving and regularly returning to a state, an experiential condition, where you're no just you but merged with the infinite? Then wouldn't you have to repeatedly use the method that got you to that point? I really am a novice/unsuccessful with respects to all this.
I'll blame it on my fear to kill my ego. Now, I've never been subjected to a sensory deprivation tank, but I would imagine that some forms of meditation induce something very similar to that. The safety net something like that offers a person is being able to come out of it almost as quickly as they wanted to with minimal repurcussions.
Scoff mushrooms often enough and it just becomes the 'other' normal.
The novelty wears off and with a bit of luck you will get the occasional flashback for a few years.
I never wanted any 'enlightenment' and never got any, but I did have a helluva lot of fun. I'm talking psilocybin here, not these nasty poisonous Amanitas. Chucking your guts out and damaging your liver for recreation or enlightenment is just plain stupid in my books.
Meditation? Training you brain to do nothing? Is that a sensible thing to do? Are there any long term studies showing the safety of turning your brain off for extended periods?
Cheers
Chris
Midg
'But isn't enlightenment about achieving and regularly returning to a state, an experiential condition, where you're no just you but merged with the infinite? Then wouldn't you have to repeatedly use the method that got you to that point?'
While i haven't gotten all of the way, i will say, based on my own experiences that, once it's experienced, it's very hard to forget, perhaps impossible. It's like when columbus found america. He was never the same;))
BS
'Are there any long term studies showing the safety of turning your brain off for extended periods?'
Actually, yes there are. It helps the health, generally, reduces blood pressure, makes people more centered, stuff like that. They have done studies on buddhists meditating. Found out that meditation made them feel happy. The churning out of thoughts by the mind is greatly overrated. If you bug me about references, i'll try to find some. Just a little bit lazy, right now. Gonna crash, soon.
S
