Did God give us free will?

by ldrnomo 35 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Spook
    Spook

    Or maybe to add, again, the freedom here involves the following:

    If in any situation an agent choses A over B, this is an exercise of will. That will is "free" if the choice is indeterminant - in other words it could have been that the agent chose B over A - all other things being equal. This works only if the decision was random because we assume the agent must have chosen A over B rather than B over A for some reason, X.

    In this case X is the causal variable because the presence of X caused our agent to choose A over B. But for the presence of X, the decision would have been different. Therefore, the agent DOES NOT have free will because X caused the decision. X may be a preferance for A over B. X may be the aquaintance with some facts regarding the superiority of A over B. X in turn could have a determined causal chain or be random.

    If, however, most of the causal variables in decision making reside within an individual agent who by definition is different than any other agent in the same set of circumstances - then we can still judge behavior normatively as indicative of character even if that persons behavior is fully determined by causal variables. So Adam sinned, right:

    Let Adams preference for the fruit be A

    Let Adams deference for the fruit be B

    Satan aquainted Adam with X, letting X be the promise of the knowledge of good and evil.

    We say that because of X, Adam chose A over B. So X - the lie of Satan - was the cause of Adam's chosing A over B.

    For Adam to have exercised free will then he would have had to be able to chose B over A despite X. Now the QUESTION is whether his response to X - the presence of which was beyond his control- is under Adam's control. This is nonsense, because people would offer

    1. Adam could have had more trust in God.

    2. Adam could have been more suspicious of the serpent.

    But that's bunk. Adam, if he existed, was perfect to JW's. He had a perfect level of trust in God. If he didn't, only God is to blame since Adam at this point is ostensibly perfect. Furthermore, if he were perfectly rational, he would have a corresponding level of trust in God which was perfectly balanced to God's actions.

    The best theology that could be gleaned here is that this sin revealed that they werre imperfect...and now knew it. This fits fine with some theologies, but not JW's.

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    :Did God give us free will?

    No. Not according to Bible-Based(tm) knowledge, that is.

    Just ask Judas Iscariot. He HAD to do what he did or a "prophecy" straight from "Jehovah" Himself would never have been fulfilled.

    Ditto with other very numerous prophecies predicting certain people or groups of people to do certain things.

    Farkel

  • Perry
    Perry

    For Adam to have exercised free will then he would have had to be able to chose B over A despite X. Now the QUESTION is whether his response to X - the presence of which was beyond his control- is under Adam's control. This is nonsense, because people would offer

    1. Adam could have had more trust in God.

    2. Adam could have been more suspicious of the serpent.

    But that's bunk. Adam, if he existed, was perfect to JW's. He had a perfect level of trust in God. If he didn't, only God is to blame since Adam at this point is ostensibly perfect.

    Well of course Adam and Eve had perfect trust in God and Eve was no doubt suspicious of the Serpent. They simply wanted to be like God. This was a theft, and as such, the decision to steal simply overrode their trust and other suspicions. Employees may have perfect trust in their employer, and still rob them blind.

    Atty: Your honor, my client is innocent of this theft charge because the plaintiff (his employer) failed to demonstrate __________ . (fill in blank)

    Can you see that defense working it court?

  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff

    What does a naked woman and a talking snake have to do with it, I wonder outloud?

    Moshe, "Allegory" is a scary word to fundies with an dull axe.

    Jeff

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Moshe,

    That was pretty funny, LOL !

    True that, as Christians, we shoudl take into account what out Jewish brothers think about the very book they wrote.

    I am sure that in regards to the NT, very few "laymen" Jews claim expertise over their "laymen" Christian brothers.

  • flipper
    flipper

    LDRNOMO- Very good thread ! Good question.

    Since I don't really believe in a God I don't think HE gave us free will. The way I see it is we were all born into our families ( not of our own making ) and we all have the capability to express free will as we grow up and get older. The only thing controlling our use of free will is what our society puts on us as far as expectations and demands. For instance most all religions take away free will . They either demand obedience to what THEY perceive as God or demand devotion to a cause- usually the aims of the church. Also political elements take away free will, as do the upper echelons of society, the illuminati who control the banks , the finance system, etc.

    I feel that we as people can exercise our free will within those demands our society puts on us - within reason- but to totally be able to exercise free will without the constraints of our society is a difficult thing to do. I know my wife and I exercise our free will as much as we PERSONALLY can within those demands of society. I think that all humans want to be free and it is a healthy thing for people to have a choice to exercise free will in their lives - if at all possible. I think a measure of freedom is possible , but not absolute freedom. But God doesn't give it to us- we have to MAKE our own freedom and fight to preserve it. Just my 2 cents, Peace out, Mr. Flipper

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