Tough questions lead thinking people to answers. Drones continue to ignore input that would force an answer to tough questions.
Thanx for that little experience, SB. Sometimes we just don't know when the epiphany will start to unfold.
Jeff
A Conversation That Sent Me On a Search ...
by snowbird 57 Replies latest watchtower bible
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JWoods
It all stems back to the practically anti-Christ (at least anti equal forgiveness) attitude coupled with the pro-Jehovah (pro judgement, destruction, and legalisms) almost to the degree of the Hellenistic Jewish sects.
For example - in the JW reality there are many more than just the annointed and other sheep:
Good Annointed: prior to 1935 or so, stayed faithful to Rutherford until death, automatically saved into heaven by Jesus.
Bad Annointed: real annointed at one time, but did not agree with some Society Teaching. Instant Death without Remorse.
Maybe Annointed: todays shadow "annointed" - probably OK but we don't really know for sure.
Ancient Annointed: Apostles, true followers in first or maybe second century - up until Apostacy set in.
Ancient Maybe Annointed: A stealth JW doctrine holds that there have ALWAYS been true christians from time of christ up to when Rutherford took over. We cannot say who they were, but they must have been annointed. One of the most difficult JW doctrines ever to explain rationally.
Armageddon Survivors: Must be selling magazines up till the big bang. Special privilege: you can survive still married if your mate survives. Special jeaporday - many of you are full well expected to turn apostate during the 1000 years and get whacked in the second death.
Armageddon Losers: Would not listen to the door to door message. Roasted alive with nuclear fire, no hope of coming back.
Armageddon Did Not Finish (DNFs): Sold mags faithfully during life before big A, get brought back a little earlier than the hordes to come. Sorry, marriages cancelled for you, though.
Armageddon Sliders: Broadly hinted that God would give some people in places like Red China a pass if no witness actually came to their door. Very big grey area here, but it gives the chance that Armageddon could come before every single man woman and child got thier chance at a Watchtower.
Pre-witness Dead: You get a free pass at the resurrection (and this includes enough people coming back to make today's ecological issues look like an indoor Orchid Greenhouse)...however, like the Armageddon Survivors, if you do not conform to the message during the 1000 years, second death awaits!
Titannic, Bismark, Hood, and other shipwreck victims down through the centuries...pretty much same thing as Armageddon sliders...except that you are for some unexplained reason mentioned in the bible. It is not explained what happens to Good Annointed who die at sea.
In conclusion - these class doctrines along with all the time of the end BS have created a spiders web of confusion and unfairness.
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snowbird
Wow, thank you for posting this Sylvia! Isn't it amazing that we never put 2+2 together on stuff like this?
Even more amazing to me is how a seemingly innocent question can have a snowball effect.
Thanx for that little experience, SB. Sometimes we just don't know when the epiphany will start to unfold.
Epiphany is a well-chosen word, AK-Jeff. That's exactly what it was!
Sylvia
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bluecanary
I just wanted to point out that we seem to respond very strongly to the tone in which something is said. The WTS told us things in the tone that they were solid fact and we accepted them as such. Even in your writing, I could hear the tone of disbelief in your boss' voice when he said. "Do you mean that no matter what awful things a person may do, death cancels it all?" In the moment of hearing that disbelief I, like you, understood like a lightbulb coming on, what the problem with that teaching was, when I had never questioned it before.
Just goes to show the importance of skepticism and the value of questioning even that which seems solid.
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jonathan dough
You're absolutely right, Snowbird. And I apologize for the following long quote from my web site but I dealt with this particular issue as well. It is mind-boggling how they can get away with this. For those interested, please read. Otherwise skip down to the next post.
http://144000.110mb.com/144000/i-4.html
Third, as difficult as it might be to wrap one’s mind around, the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that resurrected mankind, roughly 20 billion, are judged based on their deeds or conduct during the thousand year reign, not this life today. For all practical purposes they are starting all over again. They reason that because man is supposedly acquitted of sin at death and that he paid for his sin with the wages of death he cannot be put on judgment for evil deeds committed in this life, only the next life during the thousand year reign. He will be judged based on his obedience to future millennial Law scrolls, divine instruction or laws and regulations (the Watchtower magazine, etc.?) which are intended to educate or enlighten him to perfection.
Both those who formerly did good things and those who formerly practiced bad things will be “judged individually according to their deeds.“ What deeds? If we were to take the view that people were going to be condemned on the basis of deeds in their past life, that would be inconsistent with Romans 6:7: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” It would also be unreasonable to resurrect people simply for them to be destroyed. So, at John 5:28, 29a, Jesus was pointing ahead to the resurrection; then, in the remainder of verse 29, he was expressing the outcome after they had been uplifted to human perfection and been put on judgment. (Reasoning, 337)
Time of the earthly resurrection. We note that this judgment is placed in the Bible in the account of events occurring during Christ's Thousand Year Reign with his associate kings and priests. These, the apostle Paul said, "will judge the world." (1Co 6:2) "The great and the small," persons from all walks of life, will be there to be judged impartially. They are "judged out of those things written in the scrolls" that will be opened then. This could not mean a record of their past lives nor a set of rules that judges them on the basis of their past lives. For since "the wages sin pays is death," these by their death have received the wages of their sin in the past. (Ro 6:7, 23) (Insight p. 788)
The contradiction between Romans 6:7 and Romans 6:23 should have been self-evident to them. The way the Jehovah’s Witnesses use these verses they are mutually exclusive. If one is acquitted of sin he is declared not guilty and avoids punishment. As such he would not then be punished with death, the wages of sin. Furthermore, it is curious why they apply Romans 6:7 (“for he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin”) to the resurrected unrighteous when the entire paragraph and the next is directed to only the so-called 144,000 who alone are supposedly baptized into Christ’s death (Rom. 6:1-11).
That aside, the Greek word dikaioo means ‘acquittal’ (NWT) or ‘absolved’ (NAB) ‘justified’ (Green’s Literal), or primarily ‘deemed to be right’ (Vine’s, 69). But if you look closely at its use in Romans 6:7 you will notice that the Jehovah’s Witnesses have plucked it out of context and fail to understand the unambiguous meaning of Paul’s discourse. He was referring to a spiritual death to sin for the Christian believer, not the physical, mortal death of all men.
1 Consequently, what shall we say? Shall we continue in sin, that undeserved kindness may abound? 2 Never may that happen! Seeing that we died with reference to sin, how shall we keep on living any longer in it? 3 Or do YOU not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we were buried with him through our baptism into his death, in order that, just as Christ was raised up from the dead through the glory of the Father, we also should likewise walk in a newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall certainly also be [united with him in the likeness] of his resurrection; 6 because we know that our old personality was impaled with [him], that our sinful body might be made inactive, that we should no longer go on being slaves to sin. 7 For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin.
8 Moreover, if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. 9 For we know that Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is master over him no more. 10 For [the death] that he died, he died with reference to sin once for all time; but [the life] that he lives, he lives with reference to God. 11 Likewise also YOU: reckon yourselves to be dead indeed with reference to sin but living with reference to God by Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin continue to rule as king in YOUR mortal bodies that YOU should obey their desires. 13 Neither go on presenting YOUR members to sin as weapons of unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, also YOUR members to God as weapons of righteousness. 14 For sin must not be master over YOU, seeing that YOU are not under law but under undeserved kindness. (Rom. 6:1-14 NWT)
Paul is defending “the gospel against the charge that it promotes moral laxity” (NAB note 6, 1-11). He refers to having ‘died to sin,’ and that those baptized were baptized into Christ’s death and buried with him. The symbolic death leads to life with Christ. And true believers must think of themselves as being dead to sin. Nothing in those verses can be interpreted to imply a physical death, or that all evil people are acquitted of their sins at death because Paul made it very clear that “…it is reserved for men to die once for all time and after this a judgment” (Heb. 9:27 NWT). The Jehovah’s Witnesses’ misinterpretation would actually encourage moral laxity.
Furthermore, Christ died only once for sin and will never again return to die for forgiveness of sin so the resurrected sinful billions could never obtain the benefit of his sacrifice which he made under the so-called expired New Covenant (Romans 6:10). Christ died once (Heb. 9:27,28).
And Hebrews 6:23 cannot mean that all men are punished with death for their sins. This too is taken out of context because Jesus said “… whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation but has passed from death to life” (John 5:24). The wages of sin, death, is not everyone’s punishment or reward.
21 What, then, was the fruit that YOU used to have at that time? Things of which YOU are now ashamed. For the end of those things is death. 22 However, now, because YOU were set free from sin but became slaves to God, YOU are having YOUR fruit in the way of holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom. 6:21-23 NWT)
The Christian path leads to eternal life even though one dies physically, with one limited exception at 1 Corinthians 15:51,52. For others there is spiritual death followed by physical death and judgment; nothing here even remotely suggests that they will not be judged on judgment day for deeds committed in this life.
Fourth, Paul stated that man is judged on the basis of deeds committed while in the present physical body, not the resurrected body of the next age.
We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight ... we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. (2 Cor 5:6-10, NAB)
Since we are all judged for evil committed, Paul was speaking not only to the 144,000 as the Jehovah's Witnesses routinely claim, but to all men (the implications of this are enourmous because first century Christians were therefore comprised not only of the 144,000 and the New Testament was not directed in most instances to only the 144,000). Of course, the Jehovah's Witnesses teach that since Paul's words here refer only to the anointed, it still allows for resurrected man to be judged for deeds committed in the next physical body. But if that is the case, not only are some of the 144,000 committing evil deeds, the 144,000 anointed are judged like the rest of us. And since some of the 144,000 are evil-doers because they don't live up to their own high ethical standards they can't be part of the 144,000. Therefore it is impossible to use that number as a benchmark for counting down to the end times, for identifying who of the anointed remain on earth. No one knows who they are until they have been sifted through the judgment process.
The Jehovah's Witnesses counter this by modifying verse 10 to conform to their doctrine by claiming the anointed are "awarded," not judged, implying that they all will receive something good, but such an interpretation flies contrary to the "evil" conduct of some of their members which shall be punished, not awarded. Furthermore, a literal interpretation does not say they will be "awarded."JD II
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snowbird
Ancient Maybe Annointed: A stealth JW doctrine holds that there have ALWAYS been true christians from time of christ up to when Rutherford took over. We cannot say who they were, but they must have been annointed. One of the most difficult JW doctrines ever to explain rationally.
ROFL at JWoods!
There is a saying somewhere in the Bible that God catches the wise in their own cunning!
It certainly fits the WT.
Sylvia
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snowbird
I just wanted to point out that we seem to respond very strongly to the tone in which something is said. The WTS told us things in the tone that they were solid fact and we accepted them as such.
BlueCanary, that's exactly how so many are hoodwinked.
Sylvia
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poppers
Poppers, if you asked questions like that, you would either be classified as "weak in faith," "thinking independently," or told to wait on Jehovah.
poppers, there is no teaching on that stuff. We were told that it's best not to speculate about it. It was in Jehovah's hands and he would take care of it as he saw fit.
Next time I've got JWs at my door I'll ask about it just to see what they'll say (it's been a few years since they've been here. I think I may have been marked as a "do not return" because I challenged them on some things). They seem so certain about so much I'll question why they can't have an answer for me. Since I've never been a witness I'm entitled to consider such questions, and if I were to convert and no longer be allowed to entertain such ideas that would hardly seem reasonable. I'm also wondering now about all of the billions of formerly dead people who will suddenly be back. Where will they live? Where will the food come to feed them? Undoubtedly, more questions to "leave in Jehovah's hands".
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snowbird
Jonathan Dough, thanks for that dissertation.
Sylvia
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JWoods
Third, as difficult as it might be to wrap one’s mind around, the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that resurrected mankind, roughly 20 billion, are judged based on their deeds or conduct during the thousand year reign, not this life today. For all practical purposes they are starting all over again. They reason that because man is supposedly acquitted of sin at death and that he paid for his sin with the wages of death he cannot be put on judgment for evil deeds committed in this life, only the next life during the thousand year reign.
Exactly, Jonathan. Double Jeopardy in any conceivable court of law. Why? simply because the current JW split heaven/earth class doctrine cannot bring itself to say that accepting Christ can absolve all now and future sin for the "other class" like it unfairly does for the Annointed Bride class.