Can Someone Please Explain....

by Cold Steel 26 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Cold Steel

  Thanks for the replies. I can readily understand the doctrine of Jesus returning in 1914, but how does anyone know that he looked over the religions of the Earth? How do they know unless someone told someone?

  I've spoken to some of them as they've come by, but never had the time to engage them in much of a conversation. In fact, there was a time they would have tried to come in. They don't seem to want to do that anymore. They just hand me a Watchtower and go on to the next door. I enjoy studying religions and the psychology behind them, and I find them to be decent people; but they're living in a dreamworld they've allowed others to fabricate. I'd be more apt to understand them if the Watchtower group claimed to be new apostles, or if they received divine guidance. There was a fellow years ago by the name of Herbert W. Armstrong (I'm sure many of you old people remember him). He claimed in no uncertain terms to be God's spokesman, and I always wondered what would happen when he died. Well, he did die and now his Worldwide Church of God has fragmented and there's now Ronald Weinland, who claims to be one of the two witnesses called to minister to Israel in the last days. Each time someone dies, there's more fragmentation, but at least these men claimed to be God's spokesmen and to have communed with God. It's entirely different for someone to just claim to represent God without having heard from God.

  William Miller never claimed to represent God, but used the Bible as a guide to figure out what God was going to do. People can point to 1912 and say Jesus entered the holy of holies and did this or that, but then, I guess others could argue he was in Cleveland working at a homeless shelter!

  Regarding salvation, the JWs beleive there will be an earthly class and a heavenly class (or at least they did back in the 70s). All people not alive would be brought back to life at some future time and that those who sided with Jehovah and his armies will find salvation while those who do not will be eternally destroyed.

  I realize there's a lot of criticism of JW beliefs here as well as a lot of former members. As for the Witnesses themselves, do they still meet with people and give Bible lessons like they did years ago? I recall there being a small blue book (I think it was called "The Truth That Leads to Everlasting Light" and then a green one. The Bible was hard covered and of a more vivid green in color.)
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  yknot

  They know because Rutheford had the claim printed up in WTS material........ (at least Joseph Smith got nine people to vouch for his golden plates). If you don't agree you are punished or evicted until you agree.

  Seriously it is just a claim that took root among the R&F because it has so oft been repeated in the literature and talks. If you are wanting to know why and what for..... it goes something on the lines of the WTS members were 'watching' (1914) and upon inspection (1918/1919) 'found providing proper spiritual food and the correct time' in comparison to the rest of Christendom....

  Yes we still do Field Service (FS), yes the zeal for such is very low......

  We still do 'studies' too, however long gone is the 'Truth' book. Currently we start off using 'What Does the Bible Really Teach', then follow up with "Keep Yourselves in God's Love'....but the appendix isn't a required review (and for good reason as it is really harsh regarding shunnning). At anytime that the 'study' professes a desire to become a JW to the local Eldership they granted the privilege of doing some FS followed by receiving the book "Organized to Do Jehovah's Will"........if they can answer the 100+ questions at the back of the book, then they are approved for baptism at the next assembly or convention.

  Should you be curious here are downloadable PDF links to the current 'study' books:

  "Bible Teach" http://www.4shared.com/file/61585821/2da3a9aa/2005-WDTBRT-PDF1.html

  "God's Love" http://www.4shared.com/file/62479366/e9ccf7bd/2008_Keep_Yourselves_in_Gods_Love.html

  'OD Book" http://www.4shared.com/file/62479717/d683f930/2005_ODBook.html

  Randy Watters (Dogpatch) posted a really uber-creepy video awhile back of those splintered Armstrong followers...

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/176788/1/Restored-Worldwide-Church-of-God-Watchtower-in-12-years

  Well the WTS has long claimed Angels are at the helm and directing all things, sometimes it is dead and resurrected past leaders...just depends on the era.

  Anything else you wanna know or discuss?

  PS Bibles are now dark colors but I LOVE MY GREENIE (cuz of the dinosaur)......used it at today's service too!
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  Lieu

  Rutherford claimed he had a dream to call his new group Jehovah's Witnesses (never said God spoke to him though) ... thing is, Rutherford was a known drunk.

  There's no real proof. The dates just make me believe they were practicing astrology and numerology to base their conclusions on.
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  Black Sheep

  Hi Cold Steel.

  Have you considered studying how high control groups work?

  You may find it more interesting than comparing a few apocalyptic groups.

  It can provide some entertainment too. For example, you might be watching a tv program about cults and members make statements in their defence. Next time you meet a JW or Mormon who is willing to talk to you, try to manoeuvre them into saying the same things. Lots of fun when you know how.

  Cheers

  Chris
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  White Dove

  JW's will explain it like this: This is God's Kingdom on earth because we are the only ones preaching worldwide and we don't go to war.

  That is the only explanation the younger than 50 year old publishers know. I never knew that Jesus inspected the congregations in 1919 and found the JW's the only good ones. I never knew what was so great about 1919.
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  greengopete

  If you really want to know just how far off the WTS is, go read...

  understanding with Insight
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  OnTheWayOut

  Each time someone dies, there's more fragmentation

  WT Organization extremely fragmented, they almost dissolved when Rutherford took over because so many left.
  That is most certainly why he started the campaign that by 1925, the prophets would be resurrected. Dangerous groups like WT need an end-date. Up until 1995, WT had an end-date. Now they are drifting and relying on their membership from over 15 years ago to just feel like they have nowhere else to go. They are slowly losing them.

  As for the Witnesses themselves, do they still meet with people and give Bible lessons like they did years ago?

  Most definitely, they will study with people. While it's called a "Bible Study" you know that it is really a WT-publication study. The current study book is WHAT DOES THE BIBLE REALLY TEACH?
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  Cold Steel

  There are many who believe the whole concept of God is a learned belief.

  A couple of weeks ago, I bought some cheap Kreskin DVDs on Amazon (ten bucks for three DVDs). He really is amazing in hypnosis. I get bored by card tricks and magic, but I love watching people react as a group in the way they do. The power of suggestion is astounding. He had a whole group of people think they saw three flying saucers when he dropped a kerchief. The whole group went nuts. He told them: "You won't see anything that isn't there until you see me drop it. Then you'll hear a loud noise up in the sky and you'll see, vividly, three flying saucers." Afterwards none remembered anything, even the guy who wanted to call the police. When Kreskin shouted to them, "Look, one of them's landing!" the group scattered and he had to call them back. It was hilarious.

  But getting back to Jehovah's Witnesses, do they ever put pressure on people to join the church, or do they wait until you show an interest? I wouldn't mind doing a little Bible study just to see what their views are. I did it awhile back in the 70s and can't recall much of what they said now. Just the basic doctrines: soul sleeping, the Jehovah thing, what the true church should look like...that sort of stuff. Oh, and leading questions. Lots of those. I was turned off by a lot of the esoteric terms. "Slaves" rather than "servants" was always a bit pedestrian, I thought. A slave is a grunt, a common worker or laborer. A servant is more personal and implies a degree of trust.
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  keyser soze

  As far as I know, no one claims prophetic guidance in the organization. There are no angelic ministrations, no visions from the Almighty, no rushing of winds, no fiery pillars, no tongues of fire or speaking in tongues. Since God anciently manifested Himself by such means, making known His will to men, doesn't it stand to reason that Jehovah's "earthly organization" would have some communication from God to confirm its validity?

  This was something I could never reconcile, myself. If they weren't inspired by God, then what made their claims to truth, and being god's chosen channel, more valid than any other religion? If they were inspired, then their words should be infallible, the same as the scriptures.

  I remember making this point to an elder who paid me a visit, after he argued that the organization never claimed to be infallible. My response was simply,"Why aren't they, if this is truly the means that God is using today, to reach people?" He argued that they were still imperfect men, despite being used by god. I responded that the men who wrote the scriptures were imperfect as well. He had no response to that.
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  JWoods

  One delicious irony is that back prior to 1919 (or really much later), they did not even know who the faithful and discrete slave was, (by current teaching) but they now claim that the faithful and discrete slave was always there anyway - all the way back to the time of Jesus and the Apostles!!!