What do you think about Revelation?

by wantstoleave 48 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Hopscotch
    Hopscotch

    When I was fading from JWs one of the books I read was The Crucifixion of Truth by Tony Bushby.

    This is a quote from p279 of his book.

    The forerunner writing to the Book of Revelation (c. 500BCE)
    This document is the apocalyptic writing of the Sibyl of Tarquin, originally called The Mysteries of Osiris and Isis. It was the true origin of the Book of Revelation and the probable source of the concept of the Essene's two most precious prayers to the Heavenly Father and Earthly Mother. The Sibyl's writings were officially recognized in Rome and highly regarded by numerous religious sects for 1100 years. Constantine referenced the Sibylline Books shortly before his death in 337 (The Cambridge Ancient History; Vol. xii; Pg. 682) and her oracles were deeply revered by Italians and Romans until at least the sixth century.
    The church claimed that apostle John wrote the Book of Revelation after a 'mystical experience' while exiled in a cave on the Isle of Patmos. That was a false pretence and the concept of the book's origin was plagiarized verbatim from Damis's 'Memoirs' in which the Ghost eventually retired to the Isle of Patmos and wrote its life story

    He then quotes some of Book No. 2 of Sibyl of Tarquin and beside the writing, notes the corresponding verse in the Book of Revelation.

    Has anyone else heard of this. By the way I am not saying I agree or disagree with his work just that is is interesting.

    Hopscotch

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Hey Jeff, that's cool, no stress

    Well never say never! I bet there was a day when you thought you would always be a JW?

    There was a day when my wife said "you'll never get me going to that church" also.

    She is very strong minded. The thing is the Lord is very persuasive, "irresistible grace" Calvin called it.

    Whatever, I resisted the Holy Spirit for 20 years. I told Him to "leave me alone" one day in my bathroom. How stubborn I was and what for?! All the wasted years thinking I knew best, banging my head against the wall, causing myself and others pain.

    All the best,

    Stephen

  • Ultimate Reality
    Ultimate Reality

    There are a number of excellent books on a pre-70CE view for Revelation. Check out Before Jerusalem Fell by Kenneth Gentry. If you would like a compelling interpretation on this view, that examines the entire NT from the standpoint of the 1st century Christians expecting the parousia within their generation, check out James Stewart Russell's book: The Parousia: A Careful Look at the New Testament Doctrine of the Lord's Second Coming (1878).

    If you take this view, the Great Tribulation and the "end" came in 70 C.E. when Christ returned to execute judgement on the apostate harlot Babylon the Great: Apostate Jerusalem. It would have been at that time Christ gathered and sealed the 144,000 (be it literal or figurative) from the converted Jews and Gentile Christians. We are now in a figurative 1000 years waiting for the remaining few chapters of Revelation to be fulfilled.

    I am not saying this is truth--each should come to their own conclusion. However, as "bible students" this a viewpoint that we should know. It is NOT a view that organized religion wants to hear because it takes away fear.

  • Blue Grass
    Blue Grass

    While I do believe every other book in the Bible is 100% truth and is inspired by God, Revelation is the only book I don't believe is inspired. I believe this mainly because it contradicts what was taught in the rest of the Bible and it introduces way too many new ideas that Jesus, the Apostles, the Prophets, and God himself never mentioned such as the battle of Armageddon, the lake of fire, dragons, 1000 year reign, etc. And there is too much numerology in Revelation, something that is not present in the rest of the Bible.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    When I was fading from JWs one of the books I read was The Crucifixion of Truth by Tony Bushby.

    I probably don't have to read any more than this. Tony Bushby plain makes stuff up; he is one of the most unreliable sources I have ever seen pertaining to biblical matters.

    This document is the apocalyptic writing of the Sibyl of Tarquin, originally called The Mysteries of Osiris and Isis. It was the true origin of the Book of Revelation and the probable source of the concept of the Essene's two most precious prayers to the Heavenly Father and Earthly Mother.

    I did some checking and what Bushby calls "The Mysteries of Osiris and Isis" is simply his name for what Edmond Bordeaux Szekely called the "Essene Book of Revelation" and that book (text online here) originated with Szekely; it is a modern-day apocryphon. Szekely produced quite a few similar works in his time that he claimed were ancient but which lacked any manuscript or ancient evidence whatsoever (see my comments about his "Essene Gospel of Peace"). I think it is quite clear looking at the text that the source of the "Essene Book of Revelation" is Revelation itself. And the identification of this text with the lost books of the Cumaean Sibyl (but which partially survive in Virgil, Ovid, and Petronius) is simply an assertion by Bushby.

    One interested in these matters must be careful to rely on genuine ancient sources and not modern writings; there is a plethora of recent fakes available online.

    Now there are real genuine extrabiblical writings that could be postulated as influences, if not sources, of Revelation. 1 Enoch is one pretty obvious work that exerted its influence on Revelation, particularly in its concepts of a subterranean abyss imprisoning angels with chains and the eternal punishment of the resurrected wicked with fire. Another work that is a probable source for Revelation is the Zoroastrian apocalypse called the Oracles of Hystaspes which, if the excerpts preserved by Lactantius are reliable, shows some very striking similarities with ch. 11 and 13 of Revelation. This book was widely read by Christians, as Justin Martyr attests, and it was banned by the Roman government under penalty of death (i.e. it was anti-Roman propaganda much like Revelation). The chiliasm of the book, found also widely in Phyrgia and elsewhere in Asia Minor (attested also in Papias, Cerinthus, Irenaeus via Polycarp, and the later Montanists), is probably of Zoroastrian origin as well. The mythological scene in ch. 12 is likely rooted in the Isis-Horus/Leto-Apollo myth, which separately is utilized in the 13 Kingdoms portion of the enigmatic Apocalypse of Adam. This work is thought by some to be proto-gnostic and quite early (antedating second-century Sethian gnosticism), and it also has influences from Mithraic and other mythologies; I think it is thus possibly a work utilizing similar traditions as ch. 12 of Revelation, much like some of the Sibylline Oracles draw on material closely related to ch. 13-17. I should also mention 4 Ezra, a non-Christian Jewish apocalypse written around the same time as Revelation, and which has striking parallels with material in both the synoptic apocalypse (Mark 13) and Revelation. The strongest influence however is the OT; Revelation is the most allusive book of the OT in the whole NT. Almost every verse repackages some motif or phraseology or concept drawn freely from the OT but especially from the Prophets.

  • flipper
    flipper

    I agree with Farkel- John was definitely on drugs when he wrote it. Or it was just some bad dreams he had ! LOL! Peace out, Mr. Flipper

    P.S. I guess you see I don't take Revolution, er Revelation too seriously. Peace.

  • Hopscotch
    Hopscotch

    Leolaia - Thank you so much for your information. I had been wondering about the accuracy of the book since I read it as I have been having a hard time finding information to back it up as many sources say all the Sybilline works were destroyed before the book of Revelation was written.

    The other information you have given is very interesting and sounds more probable. I will definitely look at the links you have provided.

    Thanks again for this.

    Regards

    Hopscotch

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    The whole Bible lies.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    What would he JW's world be without Revelation?

    How diferent would Modern day Christianity be without Revelation?

  • snowbird
    snowbird

    Ultimate Reality, you make come compelling points. I'm beginning to think along those lines, also.

    check out James Stewart Russell's book: The Parousia: A Careful Look at the New Testament Doctrine of the Lord's Second Coming (1878).

    No relation to C. T. Russell, is he?

    Just kidding.

    Chalam, I'm off to check out your link right now!

    All y'all are totally awesome!

    Sylvia

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