Wish to debunk Witness God's Org Concept

by Luo bou to 19 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • moggy lover
    moggy lover

    If you are going to use the parable of the wheat and the weeds, it may be best to know the Watchtower "explanation" for this parable.

    Commenting on Matt 13:24-43, this is what they write in their Trinity brochure page 9: "Jesus himself explained what was behind this falling away from true worship. He said that he had sowed good seeds but that the enemy Satan would oversow the field with weeds. Thus a deviation from true Christianity was to be expected until the harvest"

    All this is under the subheading "Apostasy Foretold", and as one can see, the "exposition" provided is to satisfy the Watchtower abhorrence of what they call "apostates". That's us, by the way. The Watchtower is telling us here that Jesus foretold a time when many who once bowed down before the Governing Body of the Watchtower would fall away. Hmmm...The question is: Is that what the parable is about?

    You are going to have a tough time convincing your wife otherwise, if as you say she is in deep in the organization, since what the Watchtower says is regarded as gospel truth. But you may consider:

    1 The word apostasy is not even mentioned in the parable, neither is its concept.

    2 In order for those who symbolize the weeds, to be "apostates" it must first be shown that they were wheat originally, and then became weeds. This is absurd, as the parable shows. The wheat are always wheat, and the weeds are always weeds. It is obvious that what Jesus is referring to are not apostates, but counterfeit Christians. They will always look like wheat, and act like wheat and talk like wheat, but they are still weeds.

    3 Thus ever since the birth of Christianity there will be counterfeits proposing all sorts of ideas, and naming all sorts of names, but that of Christ, these will be identified in the end.

    4 The Watchtower teaches that by the 2nd century AD, a major apostasy broke out in Christianity, and the first evidence of this was the removal of the name "Jehovah" from the NT manuscripts, and the corresponding emphasis given, unjustifiably, mind you, to the name of Jesus. This apostasy would last 18 centuries, during which time True Christianity would disappear, except for scattered groups of unnamed true worshipers. This situation would last till 1879, when CT Russell would start the Watchtower system of belief.

    5 If this is what the parable of the wheat and the weeds symbolizes, then: the wheat would have to completely disappear to be overrun by the weeds. This is simply not so. The wheat stands tall and unconquered, it is never overrun by the weeds. In fact the weeds are kept isolated, so that they may be burnt in the Day of the Harvest. This parallels Jesus promise to His church that it would never yield to any outside force. Despite its imperfections, despite its inner quarrels, despite it all, it will always exist as a free institute under Christ.

    6 It must be noted that True Christians have no part in the harvest work. That belongs to Christ alone. It is not our place to persecute or in any way physically abuse these counterfeits. They must have their day.[Matt 13:42]

    Hope this helps.

    Cheers.

  • GLTirebiter
    GLTirebiter

    Since you said "ex" and apparently still have some communication with your ex, I wonder if children are involved? If so, for their sake, be sure that whatever you say will not inflame your ex and lead to loss of contact with them. You need to be the counter-example to Watchtower propaganda, to be the role model of an unbeliever who does love their children, who is not an evil person, who disagrees with what the Watchtower teaches but does not "hate the Witnesses" for believing those things. It's a hard place to be (I know from experience), but the example we set is the best and most important witness to other members of our divided families, especially the children.

    Discuss this only when it is clear you will be listened to ("deeply entrenched" members usually don't listen, they hear only what they are programmed to hear). Until they are clearly ready to hear what you want to say, lead them by Christian example rather than by engaging in arguments the Watchtower warns them to expect.

  • ssn587
    ssn587

    It is very hard to convice a dub of anything really, they aren't allowed to use their brain, nor are they allowed to let their brain wonder about anything that is put out by them. You have to try and reach their with their style of thinking (none really) but they do have WT styple you know here is what we are saying and here is what you can think about it.

    You also ask why is the WTBTS teaches that they the R&F and of course the "anointed remnant" (bs) are participating in a shephereding work when the parable plain and simply shows it will be the angels not people doing so. there is another way I found that works for opening up the mind even if it is for just a little while. I agree to something that is being taught then ask the spouse/ex-spouse whomever how you would explain this to someone when the bible doesn't point out the it will be people helping in the separating work.

    good luck on whatever ever you try.

  • Luo bou to
    Luo bou to

    ATJ Most ex's are ex's for a reason....

    The reason is She could not live with the cognitive dissonance "Married to an apostate whom the WT says is evil and not to be trusted while at the same time her experience living with me told her otherwise" However she has dutifully kept to the party line ( shunning me) fully believing that if she holds to it I will come to my senses and return to the WT fold

    One time some years ago when she was in hospital and thought she was going to die She insisted on speaking to me despite the vehement objection of her JW minders. My son realized this and had the hospital staff remove the witnesses so I could see her. She recovered and it was back to the party line. Although it was an extreme situation her authentic self did reassert itself. I am hoping with the passing of time ( 15 years) and the WT increasingly dogmatic stance on authority that she may be more open just maybe ( I harbor no delusions re the JW mindset)

    I am a Christian For those that question my faith I can offer no conclusive logical argument that would satisfy them. Why am I a Christian? The gospels The life that Jesus led He is the sort of God I want my God to be.

    Now as for the wheat and weeds Its part of my answer to the conundrum that the WT places its followers in " where will you go"

    The following is an excerpt from the letter to my ex that I have composed........

    { So where do you go? Is there another group that teaches JW doctrine? No! There is not. Remember when Jesus spoke about eating his flesh and drinking his blood, many of his disciples said” this speech is shocking who can listen to it” and left him. He then turned to the twelve and said “do you want to leave also” and Peter replied” whom shall we go away to” Note whom, not what religious group, but whom shall we go away to. Jesus knows those that belong to him, and as he said in a parable re the last days, they are growing amongst the weeds. Jesus is the truth not some body of doctrine and I worship with like minded Christians from many denominations who acknowledge Jesus as their Lord and saviour not their church. If I came back to your religion I would have to put faith in the claim of the WT leaders the GB who call themselves the F&D slave. The claim that Jehovah and Jesus put them in charge and you must follow them. I can’t put my faith in such a claim much less defend it, it would be like building my house on sand. I would feel very venerable threatened by anyone who disputed their authority. I could never again promote any religious group as the way the truth and the life as the mediator between god and man as the Org claims to be for the so called other sheep class. ( Jesus was talking about the Gentiles as he said I was sent to the lost sheep of Israel but I have other sheep not of this fold. Scripture should be understood in its historical context)

    I have simply told you my position where I am coming from. I respect your right to believe what you want and have no intentions of challenging it. I speak with my Mother often; I do not discuss religion with her. I enjoy her company as I hope I can once again enjoy yours.}

    What I am asking the members of this forum is Have I struck the right note? Non threatening?

  • Mickey mouse
    Mickey mouse

    You need this book.

  • Luo bou to
    Luo bou to

    GL Tirebiter

    To answer your question We have a son 26 years old a psychologist who fully understands his mothers position since we raised him as a JW. He recognises the trigger words and can observe the switch from authenic self to cult personality. He refrains from challenging her since her sense of security lies with the Org. It's sad that his Mother can't be proud of our son like I am. As you know with the Org mindset he has no status

  • GLTirebiter
    GLTirebiter
    It's sad that his Mother can't be proud of our son like I am.

    That's a shame. I'm glad your son has seen through the WT teachings and recognizes what has happened to his mother. You are right to be proud of him! I hope your ex will someday appreciate both you and your son. But it's a sad fact that you can only help somebody who is willing to be helped.

    He refrains from challenging her since her sense of security lies with the Org.

    He seems to be a wise young man! As long as she relies on the organization for her sense of security, any criticism of it is threatening to her. What most would call a expressing an opinion and honest debate, a member sees as an attack on the organization (including themselves).

    My opinion, for what it's worth: The last three sentences are the heart of the letter. She's more likely to read them if she isn't on the defensive from a religious debate. Please discuss this with your son, listen to his advice, and work together. Then when she wonders "Where else can I go?", she can remember that her family is there and has always been there for her.

  • Luo bou to
    Luo bou to

    Tirebiter said My opinion, for what it's worth: The last three sentences are the heart of the letter. She's more likely to read them if she isn't on the defensive from a religious debate. Please discuss this with your son, listen to his advice, and work together. Then when she wonders "Where else can I go?", she can remember that her family is there and has always been there for her.

    Well said Tirebiter I know I don't have to justify my position as if I am speaking to a mind open to reason but it is hard not to. If only she would listen .... I need to bite my tongue and remind myself I am dealing with the emotional side fear etc and think back to how I felt when I investigated this religion I was raised in...... I expected to find support for my faith instead I was confronted challenged and felt very uncomfortable the more I found out. I was a true believer I thought I could support my faith against anyone. I was wrong.... I could not deny the facts I was learning and realized the implications....... if the WT was wrong then I had wasted so many opportunities in life and now risked losing my marriage my witness family everything...... But I had to know the truth I could not live believing a lie. ....So I began deprogramming myself and the kids. My wife fiercely resisted wouldn't even look at WT material IE bestiality is not grounds for divorce later reversed with no attempt by the Org to undo the damage .... Answers to questions she asked me that made sense were repudiated by the simple injunction from the Elders Be carefully your husband is very clever.

    You've affirmed what I thought ( without the ego) Thanks mate

  • GLTirebiter
    GLTirebiter

    You're welcome, Luo! I'm just paying forward for the help I've gotten by lurking and reading here for several years.

    BTW, if you haven't read Randy's latest on freeminds, he has much more to say about this kind of situation: <http://www.freeminds.org/blogs/from-the-desk-of-randy/why-some-people-are-better-off-in-cults.html>

  • besty

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