Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 10-11-09 WT Study (Christian Hope)

blondie

Comments You Will Not Hear at the 10-11-09 WT Study (August 15, 2009, pages 7-11)(CHRISTIAN HOPE)

Review comments will be in red or headed by COMMENTS

WT material from today's WT will be in black
Quotes from other sources will headed by QUOTES
w = Watchtower
g = Awake
jv = Proclaimers book

Bible translations www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible
WT publications www.strictlygenteel.co.uk
WT child abuse www.silentlambs.org
Blood issue www.ajwrb.org
United Nations http://www.randytv.com/secret/unitednations.htm

Also posted on

http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com

www.jehovahs-witness.net

http://www.jwsupportforum.com/index.php

http://www.jehovahswitnessrecovery.com/

EVERLASTING LIFE ON EARTH--A CHRISTIAN HOPE? "[God] will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more."--REV. 21:4

OPENING COMMENTS

Did all Jews believe in an earthly resurrection? Did Jesus teach his followers that some of them would live on earth and some in heaven?

START OF ARTICLE/SCANS

http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p480/Jamesx777/WT_101109_0001.jpg
http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p480/Jamesx777/WT_101109_0002.jpg
http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p480/Jamesx777/WT_101109_0003.jpg
http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p480/Jamesx777/WT_101109_0004.jpg
http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p480/Jamesx777/WT_101109_0005.jpg

http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3481

Q1,2. How do we know that many first-century Jews had the hope of everlasting life on earth?

COMMENTS
Remember that Jesus' followers believed that the kingdom would be on earth. So did they have the right understanding then? Was that correct according to the WTS? Who did not believe in the resurrection--the Sadducees.

(Luke 19:11) 11 While they were listening to these things he spoke in addition an illustration, because he was near Jerusalem and they were imagining that the kingdom of God was going to display itself instantly.

(Acts 1:6) 6 When, now, they had assembled, they went asking him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?”

QUOTE
*** w91 5/1 pp. 8-9 Final Appearances, and Pentecost 33 C.E. ***
Later Jesus meets again with his apostles and leads them out of the city as far as Bethany, which is located on the eastern slope of the Mount of Olives. Amazingly, despite everything he has said about his soon departing for heaven, they still believe that his Kingdom will be established on earth. So they inquire: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?”

COMMENTS
Martha APPARENTLY--another way the WTS adds to the Bible.

Finally the WTS actually names the author and book but what are his credentials and when was the book written? He died in 1931.

http://www.archive.org/stream/judaisminthefirs028591mbp/judaisminthefirs028591mbp_djvu.txt

"George Foot Moore." The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2008. Encyclopedia.com. (October 11, 2009).

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-E-Moore-GF.html

George Foot Moore 1851-1931, American biblical scholar, b. West Chester, Pa. In 1878 he was ordained in the Presbyterian ministry. He was professor of Hebrew (1883-1902) at Andover Theological Seminary and professor of theology (1902-4) and of religious history (1904-28) at Harvard. An eminent Asian scholar and a noted teacher, he wrote a number of books, including The Literature of the Old Testament (1913), History of Religions (Vol. I, 1913; Vol. II, 1919), Metempsychosis (1914), and Judaism in the First Centuries of the Christian Era (1927).

COMMENTS
Has the WTS quoted him in the past?

QUOTES
*** w03 2/15 p. 30 The Altar—What Place in Worship? ***
American historian George Foot Moore (1851-1931), wrote: “The main features of Christian worship were...

*** g76 4/8 p. 19 Why Did They Listen to Jesus? ***
Professor George Foot Moore writes in Judaism in the First Centuries of the Christian Era: “The educated had the common pride of learning in double measure because it was religious learning. . . . Hillel [who was alive at the beginning of the Common Era] had put it in a word, ‘No ignorant man [‘am ha-arez, “people of the land,” Hebrew] is religious.”’

Q3. What questions will be considered in this article?

Today MANY religions and Bible scholars deny the hope of living forever on earth--which ones, the majority?MOST people hope for an afterlife in the spirit realm--how many who are not jws don't?What did Jesus followers think Jesus meant--life on earth, but he was offering then eternal life in heaven as kings and priests with him.........????!!!

Rather did Jesus hold out the hope of everlasting life on earth to his followers?

EVERLASTING LIFE "IN THE RE-CREATION"

Q4. What is to take place "in the re-creation"?

COMMENTS
The Bible teaches (per the WTS) that anointed Christians (only jws) will be resurrected to rule over the earth from heaven.

What proof does the WTS give that Jesus did not always have in mind the anointed? The WTS is basing this on the unproven (in this article) assumption that only 144,000 people from earth would go to heaven.

Matthew 19:28,29--who was to say that the rich young man did not reconsider his decision and become a follower of Jesus. Would Paul have qualified at that time to go to heaven?

Q5. How would you define "the re-creation"?

COMMENTS
Is the WTS expecting the reader to believe that any individual jw is allowed to form their own definition?

"the new world--The Bible--An American Translation
"when all is made new"--The Jerusalem Bible
"the renewal of all things"--The Holy Bible--New International Version

"since Jesus used the term without explanation he" EVIDENTLY referred to what been the Jewish hope for centuries.

Any quotes from other sources other than their guess?

?Re-creation of conditions on earth?

Q6. The illustration of the sheep and goats teaches us what about the hope of everlasting life?

COMMENTS
Does it follow that since the anointed are chosen to be rulers in heaven, that the righteous ones must be those who live on earth? The WTS teaches that individual anointed are judged by how they treat their fellow anointed as well. That would make them part of the "righteous" as well and possibly "the goats".

WHAT DOES THE GOSPEL OF JOHN SHOW?

Q7,8. Concerning what two different hopes did Jesus speak to Nicodemus?

This is very deceptive because Jesus was thinking and telling his followers that they would go to heaven to rule with him and that they had to be born again, as a spirit creature. Did Jesus tell his followers that John 3:16 only applied to his followers that would live forever on earth?

This boils down to a debate about life in heaven versus life on earth per the WTS dogma.

http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/earth-forever.php#L2

Q9. About what hope did Jesus speak to a Samaritan woman?

COMMENTS
What was Jesus offering her, life forever on earth or life in heaven, if she became a follower of his? Was Jesus offering life on earth to some and life in heaven to others living at that time?

Q10. After curing a man at the pool of Bethzatha, what did Jesus tell religious opposers about everlasting life?

COMMENTS
"he that hears my word and believes him that sent me has everlasting life"--so what was Jesus offering his followers--life on earth or in heaven? Heaven.

Q11. How do we know that the hope of everlasting life on earth is included in what Jesus said as recorded at John 6:48-51?

COMMENTS
Did all Jews believe in the resurrection? They also believed that the Messiah would return to rule on earth---is that was Jesus taught? Is it what jws and the WTS believe and teach? What about the WTS teaching that the "Christian Greek Scriptures) or OT apply only to the anointed who are going to heaven?

Q12. Jesus was referring to what hope when he told opposers that "he will give everlasting life to his sheep"?

COMMENTS
So what followers of Jesus had the hope of living forever on earth when he was speaking there? If Jesus had more than heaven in mind, why did he not say so since the WTS has said several times "long-held Jewish hope of everlasting life on earth during the Messiah's reign"?

A HOPE THAT REQUIRED NO EXPLANATION

Q13. What did Jesus mean when he said: "You will be with me in Paradise"?

COMMENTS
EVIDENTLY was a Jew, he needed no explanation about Paradise--are we assuming that he had never heard the Sadducees talk about their being no resurrection. Jesus followers were still thinking that they would be reigning on earth in Acts 1:6 not heaven. So who had the right thought from listening to Jesus and their own tradition, this man or Jesus followers?

Q14. (a) What shows that the reference to a heavenly hope was difficult for the apostles to understand? (b) When did Jesus' followers gain a clear understanding of the heavenly hope?

COMMENTS
So according it was not until Pentecost 33 CE that Jesus' followers understood. But was that really true? Did they?

(1 Corinthians 4:8) . . .YOU men already have YOUR fill, do YOU? YOU are rich already, are YOU? YOU have begun ruling as kings without us, have YOU? And I wish indeed that YOU had begun ruling as kings, that we also might rule with YOU as kings.

WHAT DO THE INSPIRED LETTERS SAY?

Q15,16. How do the inspired letter to the Hebrews and the words of Peter point to the hope of everlasting life on earth?

COMMENTS
But does that mean that followers of Jesus would live forever on earth or that there would be those who were not followers that would live on earth eventually being righteous? Are the great crowd of non-anointed jws considered righteous? When, not really until the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ after passing the "final test."

Q17. How is mankind's hope described at Revelation 21:1-4?

COMMENTS
The real point is what did Jesus teach his followers was the future for them, heaven or earth? He was going to heaven to prepare a place there for them....no mention of a place on earth for his followers.

CONCLUDING COMMENTS

Sorry this is late again. I have been very weak this last few days. It is amazing how the WTS blocks out all non-anointed jws from thinking they are a close position and application of Jesus words regarding the future of his followers.

Next week, Everlasting Life on Earth--A Hope Rediscovered

Love, Blondie

Tired of the Hypocrisy

Thank you Blondie!

shopaholic

Thanks Blondie for the recap!

Would someone please take the dangling carrot and just give to the rabbit already!!!

Mattieu

Many thanks Blondie.

Mattieu.

yadda yadda 2

There's a vertical bar again running all the way down your post Blondie, cutting off words on the right. Seems a fault with this software.

Otherwise, thanks.

yadda yadda 2

Paragraph 4: Says that the “twelve tribes of Israel” are “the world of mankind outside of that ruling class” of anointed Christians, YET the Watchtower Society interprets the twelve tribes in Revelation chapter 7 as meaning that same anointed ruling class. Go figure.

Paragraph 16: Says that those who eat the bread representing Jesus' flesh can include those exercising faith for life forever on earth, YET the Society forbids persons who profess such a hope from eating the unleavened bread at their annual memorial.

Whether the hope of everlasting life on earth can be called a Christian hope depends entirely on whether you think the Great Crowd is a heavenly or earthly group and whether the pre-Revelation Christian writings allude to that group.

blondie

Sorry for the inconvenience of the post and the bars. There is a bar on the bottom that moves right and left revealing the cutoff words. If someone has an idea why this is happening, let me know.

garyneal

Thank you Blondie,

As I already pointed out in another thread, the scripture cited in Question 14a conveniently skips past a very important passage of scripture John 14:6. I kept telling my wife that this scripture is the narrow road of righteousness that Christians believe in. I guess she will continue to believe that her organization is that narrow road.

BluesBrother

Thank you Blondie for all your hard work.....The article sets out to prove that the J W hope of a "righteous New World on Earth" is a Christian teaching, despite their being the only Christian group that preaches it, as far as I know.

Do their arguments stack up?

They say firstly that it was a Jewish belief prevalent at Jesus' time. That may be true, but that does not make it a "Christian Hope" so that is somewhat irrelevant to their argument.

They use Matt 19 :29. The previous verse is addressed to the twelve apostles then he says that "everyone" [that has suffered for Jesus' name] will inherit everlasting life. Now what hope was available at that time? According to the WT it was (from 33 c.e.) the heavenly hope . If the rich young ruler had believed and followed then he would have received that , not an Earthly ressurection. I do not see a clear teaching of an Earthly hope in that verse.

they use John 3 16, No mention of the Earth in the verse or chapter or in John 5 , the next one they use . The WT adds the comment that it includes the hope for those who will live on Earth...

Para 12 discusses John 6 where Jesus likened his body to bread. The para says "If anyone eats of this bread.............The reference to living forever included the long held Jewish hope of everlasting life on Earth"

It is notable that the WT of 1978 3/1 p9 had applied this differently, to the anointed, as I had thought....

But the apostle Peter stuck to Jesus and said: “You have sayings of everlasting life; and we have believed and come to know that you are the Holy One of God.”—John 6:43-69.
On that occasion Jesus was not speaking to those circumcised Israelites about “everlasting life” as human creatures on a Paradise earth under his millennial kingdom. Rather, he was speaking about the very same opportunity that he was setting before the apostle Peter and his fellow apostles by means of the “sayings of everlasting life.” It was the opportunity to gain inherent life with the Christ in the heavens, “life in yourselves.”

New Light???

The final section reviews the discussion between the dying Jesus and the evildoer " You will be with me in Paradise" they say that this "provided irrefutable confirmation" . I do now that the J W take on this is refuted by the rest of the Christian world so their comment is hardly appropriate whatever they think of the scripture..

So, have they confirmed that Paradise Earth is a "Christian hope"? Hardly, to one with an open mind. Of course when I was active I would have accepted a;; this without thinking, just "meat in due season from the Governing Body", now I do not see that their argument holds good.

Pity really, I used to like the idea of lions on the front lawn ...,

BTW...Thanks again to Blondie. We know how hard you battle against ill health

WTWizard

The article simply takes scriptures out of context, and adds an explanation as to how it ties in for the earthly hope. I have seen nothing directly from Jesus that, when in context, actually proves that people have the hope of living forever on earth. Not to mention that the way to live forever on earth is to do everything the Filthful and Disgraceful Slavebugger tells us to.

Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 10-11-09 WT Study (Christian Hope)

Share this