by AwSnap 22 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Let's see ... you could use the analogy of car keys.
Lazarus was living in his house. When Lazarus first died, it was as if he walked out of the house without his car keys. Jesus then brought him back into the house (resurrection) to get his keys.
Then, when he left the house (died) the second time, he had his car keys with him, got in the car and drove away.
Hope this helps.
Rub a Dub
Then, when he left the house (died) the second time, he had his car keys with him, got in the car and drove away.
Yes, but was he wearing his seat belt?
W
Thanks people, much appreciated.
I disagree with the soul being in heaven though, I think its the spirit that returns to heaven, although in my view, the two are inseparable, you can't have one without the other. To be honest, I'm not sure I understand the difference between the two
Or the entire thing could be fiction. That seems like a huge possibility these days. I'm just not sure.
Until I experience it myself by dying and being resurrected I cannot respond with any authority. Neither can anyone else. It's all speculation based on words written by people we have never met and whose credibility we cannot personally verify. That is why I never say things as fact, regarding jw beliefs or Bible. THEY DO, however, so I'm trying to figure out the best way to answer them. I may just say to them exactly what you said to me.
"Who knows, maybe Lazarus volunteered to come back." I like that answer too.
The bible tells us the dead "know nothing", death is not a conscious state, of that we all agree.
The spirit does go to the Lord, according to scripture. This just reminded me of a key point they made as well: "When Lazarus came back from the dead, did he speak of how great heaven was? No he did not because his spirit/soul died with his body." How would you respond to that?
I feel like if I used the analogy of the keys, I'd flub it up somehow like I do with jokes sometimes
I disagree with the soul being in heaven though, I think its the spirit that returns to heaven, although in my view, the two are inseparable, you can't have one without the other. To be honest, I'm not sure I understand the difference between the two
The spirit leaves the body on death James 2:26. The soul is closely related to the spirit though not inseparable Hebrews 4:12 For sure, both are non physical and the body is.
The bible tells us the dead "know nothing", death is not a conscious state, of that we all agree.
Not me or millions of Christians. The WT quote Ecclesiastes 9:5 out of context. They do not pay any regard to "under the sun" in the very next verse, a phrase which appears in the book around 27 times. If the spirits of the dead are in heaven, are they all floating round "conscious of nothing"? How is it that "Abel still speaks, even though he is dead"? Hebrews 11:4 How is it that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are described as not dead but living, even though their bodies are in the grave? Matthew 22:32
The spirit does go to the Lord, according to scripture. This just reminded me of a key point they made as well: "When Lazarus came back from the dead, did he speak of how great heaven was? No he did not because his spirit/soul died with his body." How would you respond to that?
Paul went to heaven 2 Corinthians 12 and was conscious and describes what he learned. He could have actually died himself and his spirit left his body 2 Corinthians 11:25 What is clear is that he was fully conscious and heard "inexpressible things".
How about the thief? How can one experience paradise if one is not conscious? Luke 23:43
Why would Paul prefer to be away from the body (dead) and at home with the Lord if that meant being "conscious of nothing" at all?
Of course, in heaven one is conscious of nothing "under the sun" but fully conscious of heaven.
Blessings,
Stephen
CHalam,
I should have been more clear, the dead ( dead bodies) are conscious of nothing.
The spirt of the person is obvisously conscious of what is going on and where it is.
As for lazarus and why he didn't speak of heaven, the only Gospel in which Lazarus is mentioned is John's and Lazarus doesn't speak of ANYTHING in it.
Or does he?
As some have hinted in other threads, some scholars believe that part of the GOJ was written by Lazarus.
There are cases when people have been declared or thought to be dead and it was a mistake. If there is accuracy in the bible, Lazarus might be the first documented case.
I do love snopes.com ...That was scary.
So let's think about what happened to Lazarus according to JW: he was on his deathbed sick, slowly drifting away, as if in sleep. Then he suddenly wakes up wrapped in strange bands in a cave, and Jesus is there, leading him out to a cheerful crowd, with no feeling of sickness. If that is what actually happened, one would think his first words would be something like: wtf? where am I? Yet the Bible doesn't say that either. WT literature shows pictures of him happy to be alive, like he actually knew what happened to him - but how could he have known, if the past days were totally non existent to him?
What my point is that Lazarus not saying anything in the Bible doesn't prove anything. As PS said, Lazarus didn't speak at all, for all we know he could have been mute
The wise thing is to consider what we do know about, not wonder too much about things we don't.
So with this in mind JWs need to consider where is Enoch and is he conscious? Hebrews 11:5
I haven't asked an active JW this yet but I surely will one day.
I did ask my friend why Abel is dead but "still speaks" and received a plausible answer, even though it used the "allegorical" wild card the JWs love to use Hebrews 11:4
All the best,
Stephen
There is as much evidence that the dead go to heaven as there is that they all inhabit a used Slurpee cup in the dumpster of 7-11. No one knows. Everything else is religion. ...and we all know it is a "snare drum and a racquet ball." W.Once
