Number of Christians in First Century

by garlic81 13 Replies latest jw friends

garlic81

Do you know if it is stated in any WT publication approximately how many Christians they thought were alive in the first century from 33CE onward who had the heavenly calling?
I found one web-site http://www.mb-soft.com/believe/txx/numberch.htm that estimates the number to be 500,000. Does that seem right? If so the 144,000 number would've been far exceeded back then. The only explanation could be is that not everyone back then was annointed (if the heavenly calling is still open today). So Jehovah didn't choose 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and so on. He would've had to pick and choose here and there to still have space open today.
Based on that thinking some who lived in the first century could have an earthly hope. If they went with this thinking it could let them extend out the time period as well, thinking that there may be sometime before all 144,000 are chosen.
jwfacts
500,000 seems to be an accurate figure. This on its own proves the doctrine of the 144,000 to be incorrect.
40,000 Christians were martyred in 95AD alone, and there were 60,000 copies of the Christian Greek Scriptures in circulation a century later.
- "It has been calculated that by the end of the second century 60,000 copies of the major part of the Christian Greek Scriptures could have been in circulation, even if only one in every fifty of those professing Christianity possessed a copy." Watchtower 1963 April 15 p.249
  
  "Diocletian assumed the crown A.D. 284. At first he seemed friendly to the Christians, but in the year 303 he gave in to persuasion and opened the tenth persecution, probably the most ferocious of all. Suffocation by smoke, forcible drinking of melted lead, mass drownings and burnings, breaking on the rack of men and women alike ran the empire with blood. In a single month 17,000 were slain. In the province of Egypt alone, 144,000 such professed Christians died by violence in the course of this persecution, in addition to another 700,000 who died as a result of fatigues encountered in banishment or under enforced public works." Watchtower 1951 September 1 p.518
diamondiiz

I had this discussion before:
Acts 21:20- "After hearing this they began to glorify God, and they said to him: “You behold, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews; and they are all zealous for the Law"
word murias - means a ten thousand; by extension a “myriad” or indefinite number: - ten thousand.
literal translation is "many ten thousands" or "many myriads"
you can compare other scriptures with the same greek word:
Luke 12:1 - "12 In the meantime, when the crowd had gathered together in so many thousands that they were stepping upon one another, he started out by saying first to his disciples: “Watch out for the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy"

Acts 19:19 - "Indeed, quite a number of those who practiced magical arts brought their books together and burned them up before everybody. And they calculated together the prices of them and found them worth fifty thousand (pente murias) pieces of silver."

Acts 21:20 - "After hearing this they began to glorify God, and they said to him: “You behold, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews; and they are all zealous for the Law"

Heb 12:22 = "But YOU have approached a Mount Zion and a city of [the] living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels"

Jude 1:14 - "Yes, the seventh one [in line] from Adam, E′noch, prophesied also regarding them, when he said: “Look! Jehovah came with his holy myriads"

Rev 5:11 - "And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads(murias murias) and thousands of thousands"

Rev 9:16 - "16 And the number of the armies of cavalry was two myriads of myriads(duo murias murias) : I heard the number of them."
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From Christian Scriptures it would apper there were more than 144,000 in the first century alone. One can argue that God didn't first pick all 144k but chose them randomly throughout the ages but another good arguement is, where is there a clear teaching that there are two classes of Christians? Why does 144k need to be litereal as WTS teaches? Where is the preaching of paradise in the bible? The preaching was of Christ not paradise! As bible isn't truely clear on 144k topic, one can speculate on a lot of things but when it comes to watchtower and their original teachings, I would doubt anything that they initiate as truth and double and triple check everything they say. As you see even the New World Translation translates "thousands" in various way and is not as consistant as wts claims that their bibe is.
B-Rock

There were no Christians in the First Century. It was Constantine that made it up. And the illuminati.
AGuest

May you all have peace! I would like to respond to a couple/few statement you have made, if I may - thank you!

The only explanation could be is that not everyone back then was anointed

No, there is another explanation: the TRUTH. Which is that t hose of the great crowd… which no man is able to number… are anointed TOO. That's WHY they are ALSO "kings and priests" and "render SACRED service" in God's "temple." Revelation 5:9, 10; 7: 15; Romans 1:7; 10:1; 11:13

Based on that thinking some who lived in the first century could have an earthly hope.

There is only ONE hope, dear one. Then… and now. Ephesians 4:4, 5

This on its own proves the doctrine of the 144,000 to be incorrect.

The WTBTS doctrine, yes. It is false. But the number 144,000 is correct and accurate. It depicts the number of ABRAHAM'S SEED (just as it states) that are called... and "chosen" (i.e., anointed)... IN ADDITION to those of the great crowd, who are also called and chosen. The promise was made to ABRAHAM… and was initially extended to ALL of his offspring through his son, Isaac... and then through Isaac's son, Jacob (named "Israel"), from whom the nation [of Israel] derived. That offspring, however, eventually rejected the King that the Most Holy One of Israel Himself chose… and as a result, the nation of Israel was replaced with people OF THE NATIONS… who God then took out "as a people for His name," which designation initially belonged to Israel alone. Romans 11:25

Why does 144k need to be literael as WTS teaches?

It is literal… but who it consists of (i.e., includes them) is a complete LIE! They teach that such group coming "from among the sons of Abraham" is symbolic… and it is not. It is fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham: in order to secure that promise, the Most Holy One of Israel made SURE… that Abraham's seed… is "sealed." That 144,000 "slots" in the rulership with Christ are GUARANTEED to Abraham's seed… as represented by such number and "sealing". Revelation 7:3

Where is the preaching of paradise in the bible?

It is all throughout the Bible, actually. That is includes the earth ONLY… is the lie, however. God's PURPOSE... is to "bring together… AGAIN… the things in the heavens AND the things on earth." That is why New Jerusalem "come down OUT of heaven" - Christ and his co-rulers rule UPON the earth… not "over" it. Genesis 2:4, 8-15; 23, 24; Ephesians 1:10; Revelation 21:2
The preaching was of Christ not paradise!

Well, actually, it kind of was… since paradise is a FEATURE of the Kingdom…Luke 23:43
As bible isn't truely clear on 144k topic

It truly is. It is "christian" religion… including, particularly, the WTBTS… that is not clear. At all.

Again, I bid you both peace!

A slave of Christ,
SA
Leolaia

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/130793/1/How-many-Christians-were-there-in-the-1st-century
wha happened?

Yea this fact was a what the F%&^ moment for me. I remember reading that WT that spoke of 45k killed in Rome alone. I didn't know about the 1951 article. Even more damning.
Dagney and I were talking about this and she made referance to the numbers not adding up. They don't. But she did mention that throughout history, there were Christians who probablky were annointed. A Justin Matyr over say, an old guy in a dorm in NY making cheese. I can picture matyrs for the cause but I found it hard to believe now that any one of the old guys in NY are annointed. None of them suffered like the Christians in the past.
jonathan dough

Why does 144k need to be literael as WTS teaches?

It is literal… but who it consists of (i.e., includes them) is a complete LIE! They teach that such group coming "from among the sons of Abraham" is symbolic… and it is not. It is fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham: in order to secure that promise, the Most Holy One of Israel made SURE… that Abraham's seed… is "sealed." That 144,000 "slots" in the rulership with Christ are GUARANTEED to Abraham's seed… as represented by such number and "sealing". Revelation 7:3
Wrong.
http://www.144000.110mb.com/144000/index.html#II
AGuest

May you have peace! I believe I responded to this article some time ago, but I can't be sure... or remember where it is, if I did. Therefore, I will do so now, if you will bear with me. Because the article is so long, I will have to post my response in sections. Here is the first, and I will also post the second. Then I am going to turn in (it is 1am here) and will endeavor to post the rest tomorrow. In the meantime, I beg your patience... and, again, bid you peace!
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
II. Assuming that the 144,000 are in heaven, the number 144,000 representing the sealed servants of God mentioned in chapters 7 and 14 in the book of Revelation cannot be taken literally. Like many other signs in Revelation it is merely symbolic.

This statement is an error. It is indeed a literal number… as evidenced by the fact that the number of the great crowd is undetermined. If the Most Holy One of Israel wanted it to be symbolic, the "revelation" would have said: "And I heard the number of those sealed, LIKE or AS IF a hundred and forty-four thousand…"
That the messages in the book of Revelation were conveyed primarily in signs or symbols and not meant to be interpreted literally is evident in the opening chapter: “A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John …. (Rev. 1:1,2 [New World Translation (NWT]).
Ummm… the NWT transliteration of the Greek word " σημα ? νω" (as "sign" is incorrect. The word ALSO means " 1) … to signify, indicate; 2)to make known"
As any Bible reader can attest, Revelation is filled with symbolic imagery, such as a “red dragon with seven heads and ten horns,” (Rev. 12:3), and numeric symbolism: “the number of the beast … is six-hundred and sixty-six” (Rev. 13:18).
Yes, SOME things, even most, are symbolized. But not ALL things are. John stated that he HEARD the number.
Given the prevalence of this symbolism one must be careful interpreting numbers or images literally, such as the 144,000 sealed servants of God in chapters 7 and 14. Though the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that only 144,000 go to heaven
Which is an error: that number that go to heaven is unknown. It includes the 144,000 from among Abraham's seed… as well as the great crowd which NO man was able to number…
a deeper analysis of Scripture shows that this number cannot be a literal representation and that the book’s author purposed a symbolic or figurative meaning.
Okay, let's analyze "deeper…"
The underlying symbolic components are numerous. First, Rev. 7:4-8 states that the 144,000 came from every tribe of the Israelites and then lists the names of what appear to be the original twelve tribes, but are not.
The assumption that they come from "the original twelve tribes" is another error.
As the Jehovah’s Witnesses point out “there never was a tribe of Joseph…
Actually, Joseph is given TWO shares (Ephraim ("Joseph") and Mannaseh)… as the "right of firstborn"… because Reuben's right to two shares… due to literally being Jacob's firstborn… was transferred to Joseph. Initially, the two were counted as "half tribes," together forming the tribe… of Joseph. 1 Chronicles 5:1, 2, 23; 7:14, 20
the tribes of Ephraim and Dan are not included in the list here,
Mannaseh is literally named because he is Joseph's firstborn. Ephraim is referred to as "Joseph" because rather than his sons being strong and "valiant" like their cousins, the sons of his brother Mannaseh… which strength caused them to grow in size… he [Ephraim] and his sons proved to be weak so as to allow the men of Gath to actually come in and slaughter them all, virtually wiping out the first set of men of Ephraim's tribe. This resulted in his DAUGHTER, Sheherah, having to take over the lands given to him. Ephraim had to procreate all over again and his tribe never became the large, strong tribe it should have been. Joshua 17:1;1 Chronicles 5:18, 23; 7:20-24.
Had Dan remained in the number at the point where they are named the Revelation, there would be 13 tribes; however, although mentioned at 1 Chronicles 2:1, when actually chronicling Israel, the tribe/sons of Dan… was NOT included; however, both Ephraim ("Joseph") and Mannaseh were. 1 Chronicles 4:1, 24; 5:1, 11, 23; 6:1; 7:1, 6, 13, 20, 30, 77
and the Levites were set aside for service in connection with the temple but were not reckoned as one of the twelve tribes. See Numbers 1:4-16” (Reasoning 166, 167). As such, the Jehovah’s Witnesses view the twelve tribes of the 144,000 symbolically.
You (or at least, the write of this article) entirely forget that although the tribe of Levi came to be set apart for sacred service, they were actually given a share of LAND… cities among the lands of the other tribes. 1 Chronicles 6:54-81
(To be continued...)
AGuest

(Continuing...)
Secondly, the sealed 144,000 listed are Jews, yet the Jehovah’s Witnesses regard this as symbolic as well for they believe they are comprised of both Jews and gentiles. (Reasoning, 166, 167).

They regard it as "symbolic" because they do not know who's who, here. The 144,000 is taken from the sons of Abraham… which is ISRAEL ... which include Jews… AND non-Jews (gentiles):
1. Jews are those from the 2-tribe kingdom of JUDAH (Judah… and Benjamin - who joined with them after almost being annihilated for gang-raping a Levite's concubine… along with a sprinkling of Levites - who served in the temple) Judges 19:1-21:23
2. Here, non-Jews (gentiles) are those from the 10-tribe kingdom of ISRAEL (all of the OTHER tribes, excluding Judah and Benjamin, but including Levi). We know these as "the Samaritans" - which is why my Lord said to the 12… "You will be witnesses of me… in all JUDEA and SAMARIA ."
Judea … is the land of the 2-tribe kingdom of Judah … Oholibah... and had the capital city of Jerusalem . Rehoboam was its first king. Judah was exiled to Babylon.
Samaria … is the land of the 10-tribe kingdom of Israel… Oholah… and had the capital city of Bethel (a center of false worship). Jeroboam was its first king. Israel was exiled to Samaria [by the Assyrians].
3. Gentiles are ANY who are not JEWS… including those of the 10-tribe kingdom of Israel . The Samaritan woman at the well was an ISRAELITE… a Samaritan and so from the 10-tribe kingdom of Israel . That is why she said to my Lord, "OUR forefathers (meaning hers AND his) worshiped in this mountain; but YOU people (the Jews) say Jerusalem is the place where persons ought to worship." John 4:20

Thus, the 144,000 IS made of Jews (2-tribe kingdom of Judah) … and Gentiles (10-tribe kingdom of Israel) .
Gentiles (non-Jews) are also from among the nations.
Third, whereas the listed 144,000 are made up of twelve distinct groups of twelve thousand members each, the Jehovah’s Witnesses also regard these numbers as symbolic. They have never classified or categorized those who go to heaven in twelve groups of 12,000 yet are quick to calculate them literally to arrive at 144,000 (12 x 12,000 = 144,000).

That's because although the number is literal… what those who make up that number ARE… is symbolic. They… make up the HOLY CITY… the "temple" of God, New Jerusalem… which is NOT built out of stone by hands, but out of PEOPLE… and by Christ. Christ is the "cornerstone" (which stone, the "builders," Israel… rejected); the apostles are the "foundation" and "gates" (one for each tribe). These, the 144,000… are the "walls," as well as, perhaps, "pillars" and "living stones." The Prophets are "pillars" and "living stones"… and members of the great crowd… are "living stones."
You (or the writer) don’t get this, however, because they (the WTBTS) don't get it, so as to have been able to write about it.
Fourth, the “seal on the foreheads of the servants” (Rev. 7:3), and the Lamb and His Father’s names which are written on the foreheads of the 144,000 (Rev. 14:1) represent figuratively, for the Jehovah’s Witnesses, God’s final approval. In their words, “God’s holy spirit serves as a seal that gives those sealed a token in advance of their inheritance, a heavenly one” (Insight, 253, 254). It is symbolic .
Neither the name, where it is located (forehead) or what it represents is symbolic. I have received such a name… it is on the forehead of the SPIRIT "man" that I am… and it is a literal token (just as if you had handed me a coin) of such "sealing." I received seal because I am of the tribe of Ben-JAH-min. "Son of the Right Hand (Christ) of JAH." I can see it… but I cannot pronounce it. Not yet. I received it FROM the Holy Spirit… BY a "sealing" done WITH holy spirit.
Fifth, Revelation 7:4 literally states that the 144,000 elect are virgin men: “These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact they are virgins.” But as anyone familiar with the Jehovah’s Witnesses knows, the 144,000 are comprised of men and women, married and single; they regard these provisions symbolically as well.

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with them being fleshly men. It means… that because they have been CLEANSED in the blood of the Lamb and thus "washed clean," they are virgins… with respect to FORNICATION AND ADULTERY AGAINST THEIR "HUSBANDLY OWNER," CHRIST. They did not defile themselves with "women," meaning the "daughters of Babylon." Such defilement did not occur AFTER their cleansing - such that, rather than attaching themselves yet again to one of the daughters of that harlot - which "daughters" are the RELIGIONS that result from "adulterous" anointed ones… those who, rather than following the Lamb, their husband, wherever HE goes… sets up knew organizations, etc., and begin to fornicate with the "kings of the earth." Isaiah 54:5; 2 Corinthians 11:2; Revelation 18:23; 19:7; 21:2
That is why I fear for those who leave the WTBTS… that particular harlot… only to attach themselves to yet another harlot, another "daughter" of Babylon the Great. Revelation 17:5

Sixth, additional evidence that the 144,000 number is not to be taken literally is found at Galatians 3:26-29 and Romans 9:6-8 where the apostle Paul makes clear that those who are rewarded with heaven due so in part as a consequence of God’s promise to the patriarch Abraham, and that the 144,000 heirs to the heavenly promise by virtue of faith are countless, without number, as numerous as the stars in the sky.

Wrong again. Although 144,000 are sealed… as "firstfruits" from Israel… to ensure that the promise to Abraham is fulfilled… at least, with reference to rulership in the kingdom… ALL of Israel will actually be saved. ALL. Romans 9:27; 11:25-32
Paul is referring to Genesis 15:5 where God promised Abraham that he would make his descendants like the stars of the sky, a promise that would eventually extend beyond fleshly Israel and encompass Christians. This Abrahamic promise was reaffirmed and recounted by Abraham’s grandson Jacob while praying to God for deliverance from his brother Esau. “Unquestionably I shall deal well with you and will constitute your seed like the grains of sand of the sea which cannot be numbered for multitude.” (Gen. 32:12 NWT).

No, God is talking about literal Israel here. Literally. Romans 11:25-32
Given these verses it is difficult to imagine how the heirs to the heavenly promise number a mere 144,000. They do not.
I absolutely agree with this statement. They number 144,000… PLUS …a number that no MAN… was able to number.
They will be countless, vast; large in actual numbers yet small in proportion to the billions who have ever inhabited earth. Never-the-less, the Jehovah’s Witnesses counter that those countless heaven-bound individuals are countless because they could not be counted at that time.
Countless, vast, yes; however, they are in error as to their explanation why… as it the writer of this article is in his/hers.
“God revealed the purpose and accomplishments of the Abrahamic covenant, saying that through Abraham the seed of promise would come; this seed would possess the gate of his enemies; Abraham’s seed through Isaac would number many, uncountable to man at that time.” (Insight, 522).

Well, I suppose they are correct in the sense that the heirs to the promise could not be counted so many thousands of years ago because they had not yet been born, and therefore there was nobody to count, but that’s not what the Almighty meant.

Another error. The heirs were foreordained… and counted… long before the seed was ever thrown down at the founding of the [physical] world. The Most Holy One of Israel does not know only the number of every hair on our heads… the number of every one of us.
Regardless of the ultimate count it seems evident that the heirs to the promise will eventually dwarf a mere 144,000. Even the Israelites who numbered in the millions were referred to as beings as numerous as the stars (Deut. 1:10).
Absolutely. But… you are forgetting the great crowd… from among the NATIONS.
Seventh, that the 144,000 is not an exact number is made manifest by Jesus’ statement that the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will also be in heaven:
Again, this article ASSUMES, as does the WTBTS, that ONLY the 144,000 GO to heaven. This is an error.
Central to the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ beliefs is the doctrine that the “Kingdom is in heaven, not earth” (NWT at 1653) and that neither the patriarchs, ancient prophets or anyone before the time of Christ goes to heaven. Yet somehow, in an effort to dislodge the patriarchs from heaven and disavow the words of Christ they theorize that this banquet in the kingdom of heaven is actually on earth.
They are wrong…
Paul also stated that the patriarchs and other men of old sought a heavenly reward, not earthly, and that this heavenly destination was achieved on the basis of their faith.
Yep!
None-the-less, the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach, incorrectly, that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will not go, and never wanted to go, to heaven. This is understandable because to concede otherwise would completely erode their 144,000 theory.
The article is correct here - the WTBTS is incorrect…
(To be continued)

Number of Christians in First Century

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