Dont forget that Jehovah's Witnesses DO NOT get baptised in the Father / Son / Holy Spirit.
The Governing Body replaces all of that.
IDOLATORY
Jehovah's Organization
by Sassenach 41 Replies latest jw friends
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MDS
Hi Sassenach:
Is Jehovah God for Organization or not? Does He "organize" His People? Should JWs be an "organization", is this God's Will?
When some in religious circules make use of the word, "organization," to many ex-JWs, they cringe, and much disdain is vented from them. They state clearly that they do not believe in an "organization" for God's People. They claim that such will always "fail," miserably. They are also quick to remind you, that even, the word "organization," in fact, does not even appear in the Bible itself at all. And this is quite true.
But this has not always been the case among many of JWs. Actually, the question of Jehovah God making use of a "organization" or not, scripturally, truthfully, came under much criticism when ex-Governing Body member, RV Franz decided to attack the notion back some 20 years ago, with the release of his book, "Crisis of Conscience", around that time.
As you have already seen, most of the people on this board, be they ex-JWs or not, espouse and embrace the viewpoint which is unmistakably synonymous with RV Franz' viewpoints and attitudes and so on. And thus, unwittingly, while trying to get as far away from the WTS viewpoints/GB viewpoints and teachings, inadvertently become the "product" of RV Franz's thinking and ideas, whether good or bad, right or wrong. They may not like this comment, but this is true. The Bible really, does not enter the true picture at all.
Their viewpoints are non Bible-based.
In fact, you will find, it will be a rare occasion indeed, when such ones will disagree with ANYTHING taught or espoused by RV Franz and company, as revealed in print.
But, what is the reality of the situation, and the use of this word, "organization," among Jehovah's Witnesses as a people today?
Really, when we objectively, examine the situation, we find the use of the word, "Organization," as used by Jehovah's Witnesses today, is trully Bible based, in line with God's Will.
Actually, Jehovah's Witnesses are a organization. They are taught this. They believe this. And they prove this many times over, .. for example, for instance, when we see them, UNITEDLY put up a structure, a kingdom hall in 2 days or less, over and over again, in locations all across the nation and places elsewhere. Yes, they are truly "organized." They accomplish much, as a team. The newspapers, the Television crews, come out to "visit," and give "testimony," to such "organized" efforts of JWs, worldwide. They are praised, much praised for this.
They work together, and have worked together for many years. They are "united" as a group. This is admirable. And we know they are taught from the Bible, that they will succeed ONLY, as an organization, as the "Great Crowd, and not as individuals, but as a united congregational throng. Now, when recognize this, then we can begin to understand why they cling to the notion so strongly.
But is the idea, Biblical, scriptural?
Scripturally, contrary to what RV Franz and Company teaches, the teaching of God's People being "united," and functioning as an "organization," is truly, a Bible-based idea and teaching. It is truly that. The "Pharisaical" WTS leaders, will quickly point you to scriptures like 1 Cor. 1:10, 2 Cor. 13:11 and Rev. 7:9 and that points rings out clear. But remember Jesus' words, do as the "pharisees say, but not as they do," in secret. Jehovah is very displeased with these modernday "Pharisees" of our time.
Nevertheless, still the fact remains, that God's People, are "organized," thus an "organization" ... which is not wrong at all. Actually, the ancient nation of "Israel," was one of the most highly "organized" cultures of their time.
Actually, when we examine the root word for this word, organization, based upon the Greek, "urg..erg..." which literally, basically, means "work." Just work.
Thus, and "organization, then is realized, when the ability to accomplish something, some project, some activity, some work IS DONE AS A GROUP. Thus we have the word, "organization."
It is like, many parts, functioning together as a group or single unit. In this, we are reminded of the human body, its many parts, working together as one. Yes, the True Church of Christ, has been compared with human "body" functions, its many functions...the "church" of God.
A strong point for the word, "organization."
We are reminded of the fact that JWs as an organization, have and can still, accomplish much, working as a single unit. And thus, this has to be viewed by Jehovah God, yes, as a good thing before Him.
The many promises of the Bible, hold out this same future, too, for modern-day "Israel," a refined, disciplined people, still working together as a "single unit," working together as a team, as a family, a single functioning unit before Our God. -- Isa. 30:26
Therefore, in our final analysis, we must recognize the fact, that Jehovah will always, gather His people together, and they will always be seen as an "organized," group. This is scripturally, Biblically well-founded within the scriptures.
Such coordination, among God's People, brings about "peace," "unity" and much satisfaction and accomplishment. Just as 1 Cor. 14:33, 40 says:
"For God is a God, not of disorder, but of Peace...But let all things take place decently and by arrangement."
Even the "kingdom of God," even that in itself, that expression, gives strong evidence of a coming "system of things," a Divine arrangement, that can be called a "kosmos," or literally rendered, a "world." -- Matthew 13th
The word "kosmos," translated for "world," then reminds us of supreme "arrangement," "orderliness," like seen in the field of "Cosmetics," where the women can "arrange," their hair in such a way to be beautified...
...or the grand universe itself, the "Cosmology," the collection of stars, moons, planets, all working together in HARMONY, ever MOVING, everything in "its place," all things moving together, but no disharmony, the galaxies, gigantic in size, clusters of galaxies, moving at tremendous speeds, quasars, and yet, no disharmony, nothing colliding into each other...no, never.
It is God's Harmony, God's "unity," God's Organization, His "Kosmos," as the Greeks would call it, in ancient times.
So, when you read of the "kingdom of God," being likened to a "field," also a "world," where the symbolic "wheat" and "Weeds," are divided up from one another... they [wheat/weeds] are taken from a "world," or a "Kosmos," a "kosmology," a greatly ordered, arrangement, a Cosmos...the "field," the "world," is really a "kosmos," an orderly arrangement, mentioned by Vines Expository of New Testament Words. -- See Matthew 13:24-43
And what will assure such "order" too, are the following words,
"And the Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom ["HIS field," "HIS world," "HIS Kosmos"] all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness," -- Matt. 13:41
It is God's "Kosmos," His "field," His "world,"... right?
So, this above mentioned "action," on the part of Jehovah, then will always assure us of the fact that God's People, "Israel," JWs, will always, always be a people, "organized," an "organization." He will keep it so.
So, does Jehovah God believe in "organization?"
... many, many say no.
But, really, just look up at the stars, they will give you the true "answer."
He is a God of "organization," completely, totally. And His "people," always be "organized," too, forever. And those that refuse to "submit," will ultimately not become a part of that fine, outstanding "organization" that, as a group, unitely, gains everlasting life before our Great God, Jehovah...the One who makes the organization -- "work!"
MDS
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TR
To anyone,
Please show the organizational structure and Governing body of the first century Christians. As I see it, there is little or no structure of an organized "religion". What I see is emphasis on individuals.
TR
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larc
MDS,
Who was Jehovah's organization from 150AD to 1850. During that 1700 years, did he have one organization or were there several along the way, and if so who were they?
Also, what was the organization in the 100 years just before Christ was born?
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larc
MDS,
What is your opinion of the JW 144,000 theory? Could you keep your answer to a one paragraph conclusion and skip the proofs please.
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Sassenach
Thank you everyone for your responses.
Larc,
The discussion I had ran along the lines of the question you pose. I had said that if Jesus did not arrive in 1914 and subsequently did not choose the WTBTS as His earthly channel, then the 'wheat' was still mixed with the 'weeds'. To which I was informed that Jehovah has always had an organization in the past and therefore has to have an organization now.
From what waiting says, this is not true. Thank you waiting. I'm going to ask these same questions next week.
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Frenchy
waiting
Good response to the excerpt. In the case of Abraham and his family there does not appear to be any formal arrangement for worship as the article implies. Nothing at all that would define Abraham’s worship as an organized religion. Job, for example, was certainly a man in whom God was pleased and Job belonged to no group or organization. And as was mentioned, Melchizedek broke all the rules in that respect also.
It is true that a religion was formed when the Israelites were freed from Egypt and that God dealt with that nation. It’s true that the temple was in Jerusalem and that was the center of worship at that time for Jehovah. What we don’t know is how God viewed individuals that were not Jews, individuals geographically removed far from this place. So this cannot be used as a valid argument that no one outside the ‘organization’ has any chance of salvation.
Again, you make a good point about first century Christianity in citing the example about the man who was performing miracles in Jesus’ name but was not following ‘the crowd’. (John 9: 49,50) It could be argued, however, that the Ethiopian eunuch was baptized and thus became a Christian and was part of that first century religion.
I also agree with you that the WTBS is not necessarily patterned after first century Christianity. It may perhaps be a vague and unreasonable facsimile but certainly not a recognizable modern counterpart. That period of time you mention between the first century ‘organization’ and the one that appeared some two thousand years later is also an interesting factor. According to them there existed no true organization for pure worship.-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
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Frenchy
MDS has accused ‘most’ us here of basically being disciples of Ray Franz. He has also made the accusation that for ‘most of us,’ the Bible does not enter into our reasoning. Since I am in this group I feel compelled to say that I have never spoken to Ray nor have I read any of his work. My views may or may not coincide with Ray’s but since I have had no contact with the man, my ideas are not the ‘product of Ray’s thinking and ideas.’ I also take exception to MDS’ statement that ‘their viewpoints are non Bible-based’. My views are based on nothing BUT what I can understand from Scripture.
Actually, Jehovah's Witnesses are a organization. They are taught this. They believe this. And they prove this many times over, ..
No one has argued this point here. We are all very well aware that they are an organization.
the teaching of God's People being "united," and functioning as an "organization," is truly, a Bible-based idea and teaching. It is truly that. The "Pharisaical" WTS leaders, will quickly point you to scriptures like 1 Cor. 1:10, 2 Cor. 13:11 and Rev. 7:9 and that points rings out clear. But remember Jesus' words, do as the "pharisees say, but not as they do," in secret. Jehovah is very displeased with these modernday "Pharisees" of our time.
So although Jehovah is displeased with the leadership of the WTBS he is still insisting that people go there for salvation? Why? You openly disagree with the WTBS. Are you saying that they are the true religion? Are you saying that we should all be JW’s and ‘secretly’ do different than what we are taught? What happens when we get found out and get removed? Our salvation is lost? What is your recommendation?
Actually, the ancient nation of "Israel," was one of the most highly "organized" cultures of their time.
Are you discussing religion or cultures? What does an organized culture have to do with a religious organization? And as for the Greek lessons, are you a Greek scholar? Are you conversant with the Koine Greek of the Bible? Or are you just looking up the words in the dictionary?
We are reminded of the fact that JWs as an organization, have and can still, accomplish much, working as a single unit. And thus, this has to be viewed by Jehovah God, yes, as a good thing before Him.
How can they if the leadership is like the ancient Pharisees? And if they are approved by Jehovah why are you disagreeing with them? Is it only the leaders that are bad? How about the D.O.’s and C.O.’s and elders? Would they be considered Pharisaical as well?
Such coordination, among God's People, brings about "peace," "unity" and much satisfaction and accomplishment. Just as 1 Cor. 14:33, 40 says: "For God is a God, not of disorder, but of Peace...But let all things take place decently and by arrangement."
Again are you recommending that everyone become a JW? Are they truly (and exclusively) ‘God’s People’?
What about the other religions? They are organized also. As organizations they are able to do much more than an individual. Is Jehovah using them as well? Why or why not? What is it that makes the WTBS God’s organization? What are their credentials?-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
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STRUGGLE
Do you beleive in the Bible? When reading it, you discern for yourself which organize religion is to the best of their ability,
following it. The Bible speaks about removing the wicked man, it speaks about learning war no more, it speaks about going out and preaching, it speaks about the dead being conscience of nothing at all....Read 1 John 5:20 and Matt. 7:21-23, we would be regconize by our fruitage. Got to go to work now.
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larc
To all of you that go on and on and on,
who was Jehovah's organization through the vast period of history that I mentioned?