Are we saved by WORKS or by FAITH?

by UnDisfellowshipped 23 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Saved by WORKS or by FAITH?

  What does the Bible teach? And what do Jehovah's Witnesses teach? What do you believe about this?

  Let's have a really good discussion and debate about this important Bible topic.

  Here is my position:

  * We are saved only by God's grace (undeserved kindness) through faith in Christ as Lord, God, and Savior (because of His sacrifice for our sins). Works play absolutely no role in us obtaining the free gift of salvation and eternal life. However, after we have been saved and the Holy Spirit dwells in us, then the Spirit working in and through us and will produce good fruit and good works in our lives.

  * Works are the RESULT of salvation, not the CAUSE of salvation.

  * The Epistle to the Galatians also teaches that we cannot REMAIN or KEEP salvation by our own good works or human effort. It is all done by God's Spirit.

  Very important verses to examine here are Ephesians 2:8-10, Romans chapters 3 and 4, Romans 11:6, and James chapter 2.
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  The Oracle

  Even though I don't agree with your position, I believe your position makes more sense than the JW position on this bible topic.

  I think your position more accurately reflects what is written in the bible.

  My position is that there is no supernatural kind of salvation available to us humans. I also feel that good works should be motivated by a strong desire to be a positive influence in this world, and to be of service to your fellow man.

  The Oracle
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  No Longer Held Captive

  Legalists and extremists like jws are saved by outward works that they call acts of faith, but they cant be acts of faith as they are done to please men and their stupid man made rules.
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  yadda yadda 2

  We get a thread on this subject about once a week.
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  JosephMalik

  Works play absolutely no role in us obtaining the free gift of salvation and eternal life.

  Undisfellowshipped,

  But it did for those to whom Paul wrote such comments. How so? Because to them works was another way to describe their religion, their belief system and up until now they had it for all their lives. Such works was their way to salvation as it was for their ancestors. Works was Paul's shorthand for the Law and such works sometimes called dead works were a way of life to them as were other words for Law like circumcision or Moses. Now such works would not save them we learn. Such believers that were still keeping this Law had to change and Paul was now doing that by his instructions to them. But there were also problems among those not keeping the Law like Gentiles for the most part that had no such bondage. What was that? As you said: "We are saved only by God's grace (undeserved kindness) through faith in Christ as Lord, God, and Savior (because of His sacrifice for our sins)." This was also a problem for many such believers. Why? Because belief in Christ means that we keep His commandments and this this goes far beyond just believing. Our Lord expressed this truth like this: Joh 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And again: Joh 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. Now James who finally came to this conclusion would use works to reflect such statements made by our Lord when he said: Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Or again: Jas 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead. Yes, it takes more than just believing, it takes an effort that James is now calling works. This new use for this word works brought out that such effort was expected of them. This is a natural result of our faith and such thinking is also embedded in the words faith or believe even if we do not realize it and this is also reflected by our Love of Christ

  Joseph
  
  
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  WTWizard

  In the Bible (and that is assuming that one still believes the Bible as a valid source of guidance), grace is what saves us. Works play no role in salvation, except that they result from faith and grace. This is one place where the witlesses blow it--since they claim to adhere to the Bible, and the Bible says that it's grace and not works, their saying that it is works (or implying that works are necessary) makes them liars.
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  Deputy Dog

  No Longer Held Captive

  Legalists and extremists like jws are saved by outward works that they call acts of faith, but they cant be acts of faith as they are done to please men and their stupid man made rules.

  You make a very important point.

  The very sad thing in many churches today (not just the JWs) is the belief that works keep you saved. Most, wrongly believe that they can please God by law keeping.
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  sspo

  A million opinions available on this subject and everyone one of them is right in their own eyes.

  When i hear gods voice from heaven if he is alive and well, maybe i'l listen to him and not a book that people claim it was written by him.
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  JosephMalik

  Works play no role in salvation, except that they result from faith and grace.

  WTWizard,

  So they do play a role as you admit and we can see them. It is just that such works are not works of Law. This is what James now meant as well. He used a word they knew very well and now used it another way: Jas 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead. This faith did not include the Law anymore. Now words like Grace do not change this. This is a story with many parts explained separately but intended to be understood collectively and we do not pick and choose which one we prefer. After all we did not write what was written and explained to us.

  Joseph
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  dgp

  I agree with WTWizard. It's grace that saves you. And faith in that grace. It's not works.

  In "Crisis of Conscience" you will find an example given by Ray Franz. You can have a man in a high position of command who abides by every law, yet that doesn't make him loving, or sincere, and that gives no proof of what his real beliefs are. Such a man can do a lot of evil within the frame of the law. That is simply not Christian.

  Jesus is supposed to have come to put an end to legalism. That is why he spoke so bad of the Pharisees, whose mindset was that it was works that mattered. The Catholic Church once said that you could buy salvation. Remember the sale of indulgences?

  It is not law that matters, either. Jesus said that the sabbath had been made for man, not man for the sabbath.

  Doing the right thing just because "it is required", or it will save at the time of Armageddon, or gives you standing in the congregation, has no value at all.

  I agree that this is the same evil that plagues many other churches, not just the JWs.

  By the way, if it were works that saved you, then many churches would have serious trouble. A Moslem who did everything a Christian did, except belonging to a Christian organization (which can't be the definition of "works") would be saved, then. How come? Does the organization not matter at all?