Question regarding Holy Spirit... (page 3)

jonathan dough

The only problem I see with holy spirit being a seperate personage rather than 'active force' is.....

NWT: (Matthew 1:18) . . .But the birth of Jesus Christ was in this way. During the time his mother Mary was promised in marriage to Joseph, she was found to be pregnant by holy spirit before they were united. . .

I checked other translations and they too say similar..... so if hs is a seperate 'person' then isn't Jesus the son of hs rather than God the Father.

It is not one or the other. The HS is not the third person of the Trinity or an active force. It is both:

It is true that in the Old Testament God’s Spirit is primarily referred to as a power used to create and influence men’s souls and minds like Moses, David or the prophets either temporarily or permanently (Catholic Encyclopedia, 574). It would teach, guide and eventually affect a moral transformation of mankind under the future New Covenant (ibid.). “The OT clearly does not envisage God’s spirit as a person, neither in the strictly philosophical sense, nor in the Semitic sense. God’s spirit is simply God’s power” (ibid.).

In the New Testament, however, the Spirit of God is both a power and a Person (ibid., 575). The Jehovah's Witnesses regard the supporting verses as mutually exclusive - the Spirit must be either a power or a person, and since it can’t be a person it must be a power. However, Scripture read together cannot accept one meaning at the expense of another, so, as indicated in Strong and Vine’s the power is the “Power of the Holy Spirit” (at 162), which is the Spirit of God (Romans 9:8-11 RSV), and Jehovah (or Lord RSV) is the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17 NWT). The Holy Spirit is not simply an inert unthinking electrical current flowing from Jehovah God. It is a powerful spirit Person.

http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-8.html#38

Watkins

When we come out of the WT mindset it seems, at first, that we have limited choices - WT dogma or another church's dogma. How about we just dispense with ALL of it and the fear(of not getting it 'right') that goes with it?! Forget what the WT says - they're mostly wrong about most topics, lol. But don't feel like you need to buy right into another set of dogmatic doctrines, either. They are the opposite poles of extremism, imho. The real truth might be found somewhere in between, or maybe even totally outside their perfected 'arguements'. So many words and all the trouble to dissect them - and yet we will probably still end up choosing new sides and castigating the other side from whence we came - ironic, huh?

God's Holy Spirit IS God - from Him and of Him - if it was not something wholly owned by Him it would have a separate name as 'Immanuel' / 'Yeshua' did. The problem with the trinitarian view is that they take the spirit and separate it from it's Owner and make it into an 'equal' 'person'. It can be called 'it' or personalized as 'he' - because it IS God and no one other than God. I can't see that God's spirit is separate from Him in any instance. If you lie to 'God's spirit' then you are lying to God Himself! There is no separate entity - God's spirit is holy because it's HIS spirit and He is holy - God is a spirit(as Yeshua said).

Divine things just don't boil down to formulas of understanding. We know our knowledge is limited, don't we? I wish my brain worked to even a tenth of it's capacity! We argue over these words as if we really do 'know it all' - even when we KNOW we don't... Maybe it comes down to: To stand on God's side even without knowing all the minute particles of detail - that's what takes real faith, dontcha think? God never has based His requirements so much on knowledge as on love and faith.

jonathan dough

The problem with the trinitarian view is that they take the spirit and separate it from it's Owner and make it into an 'equal' 'person'.

No it doesn't. The Trinity doctrine does not teach that the Holy Spirit is separate from it's owner. The three Persons of the Trinity are inseparable. This is a common misunderstanding.

In most formularies the doctrine is stated by saying that God is one in His essential being, but that in this being there are three Persons, yet so as not to form separate and distinct individuals. They are three modes or forms in which the divine essence exists. ‘Person’ is, however, an imperfect expression of the truth in as much as the term denotes to us a separate rational and moral individual. But in the being of God there are not three individuals, but only three personal self-distinctions within the one divine essence. (New Bible Dictionary, 1299, 1300)

http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html#3

tenyearsafter

Designs - Thanks for the suggestion...it sounds like that would be an interesting study topic.

JD - I guess I still have a problem grasping the difference between seperate "persons" and that they can be both an "it" and a "he", as in a force and a person. There are some things that our imperfect minds can't truly grasp. I think that is why I have a problem accepting the classic explanation of the Trinity. Don't get me wrong, I don't buy the JW explanation, but I struggle with the concept of immanent Trinity. Your website is very well written and researched, but I have to think that it would be very difficult for an under or uneducated person to understand and sort out. Why would God make an understanding of his character so complex?

Watkins - Thanks for your thoughts. I tend to think more along the lines of what you are saying. I think being from God and part of God is easier to understand than the more complex explanations of the Trinity taught by orthodox Christianity. I still have to believe that if God was trying to reach even the most simple and uneducated person, he would not make important salvation issues so complex and difficult to understand. I have to believe the nature and character of God is critical to having a relationship with him...afterall, how can you love and have a close relationship with someone you don't know? As soon as it takes "someone" to have to interpret things for God, I think it is a red flag signaling a deviation from simple truth.

Great comments everyone!

TYA

jonathan dough

Why would God make an understanding of his character so complex?

Many things are complex. Physics, math, medicine. It's not as difficult as you might think, and grasping the complexity in all of its many facets is not required for salvation. You want to talk about complex, try to reconcile the JW Jesus/man/angel theory with the proof texts that Jesus was and is God.

Immanent Trinity is easy. We're dealing with Spirit. It's God, Son and Holy Spirit before creation. God in Himself. It is not the creature Jesus born to Mary.

I guess I still have a problem grasping the difference between seperate "persons" and that they can be both an "it" and a "he", as in a force and a person.

The persons aren't separate. I wouldn't get hung up on the semantics of "it" and "he." There are more important defining issues. God is a force and a person. Jesus is a force and a person. See Romans chapter 8. And Person is not a person like you or I. Read this short section:

http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html#3

frankiespeakin

TenYA,

I still have to believe that if God was trying to reach even the most simple and uneducated person, he would not make important salvation issues

so complex and difficult to understand.

One of the first things I began to realize about the the teachings of the WT was that they made "accurate knowledge" a matter of salvation. And I began to reason :

Why would a loving God make getting a high score on a bible quiz it a matter of life or death?

And How many answers could you get wrong before you flunk and become bird food at armageddon?

Once I started down this path of reasoning and logic it became plane for me to see that these requirements for right understandings came not from God but from humans that wanted to control your life for surely if God was as loving as the bible says He is he would not be so petty.

Later on(about a year later) the whole house of card built up by WT indoctrination fell apart,, but the starting point for me was the issue of a high score on a bible quiz and the difficulties involved in order to be sure to get a correct answer, from that point on it was all down hill.

designs

fs- Wish you well on the new journey and the peace of being Free.

No more Thursday night quizzes........ain't it grand

frankiespeakin

Designs,

It was about 6 years ago, I've come a long way since then, it is grand!

It is easy to see why a religion would make "correct knowledge" it a matter of everlasting salvation, the fear factor is a good inducement for further indoctrination and the subsequent slavery to them as the providers of this vital life saving indoctrination. It is a thought looping vicious circle of continued indoctrination that has served many christian religions well, and insured their survival over the centuries.

jonathan dough

ne of the first things I began to realize about the the teachings of the WT was that they made "accurate knowledge" a matter of salvation.

The JWs misquote John 17:3 and use that to cram their literature down your throats and scare you into filling their seats. John didn't write "take in accurate knowledge" but that salvation means to know God in the literal translations. And there are many ways to know God without being a "Bible scholar." Abraham did just fine knowing God without the Watchtower. And even if the JWs were right about John 17:3, using their literature to infuse the flock with accurate knowledge begs the question: is their drivel accurate knowledge? Of course one could argue one wouldn't need the Bible at all to know God, and for some that might be true, those who have not had the opportunity, but for those who have, that would be stretching it.

This is off topic.

frankiespeakin

Jonath,

So what do you understand the phrase "to know god" to mean?

I know it is off topic but related just the same to our discussion.

Question regarding Holy Spirit...

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