Mystery of the week, still trying to figure this one out.......

by EndofMysteries 11 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  EndofMysteries

  After reading the 2nd half of the bible about 3 times in a 3 month period, I felt I needed to start from the beginning. For the most part, been told most important things which apply to us and that is needed are the books of Matthew - onward. Well I found out quickly from Psalms onward how untrue that is. Psalms onward are a lot of prophecies giving perfect details of events TODAY and describe and foretell what will happen on the earth right prior and during the great tribulation, and many are much more detailed then in Matthew onwards. That's neither here nor there, just a little background info on what got me to Genesis, etc.

  I've found in early books of bible, especially Genesis, prophecies which can shed light on the future, and give understanding to other prophecies in the bible.

  Now in Genesis Chapter 49, this is after Joseph who was betrayed by his brothers, had saved and helped his family. It was Joseph and his brothers from where the 12 tribes of Israel originated. Now Jacob prior to his death, foretold what would becoming of his brothers decendants in the future.

  (A side note, for deep readers and those who really been getting spirit, read the whole account of Joseph, and you'll see some striking similarities and symbolism which either prophetic or have a very deeper meaning for future events in the bible even down to today)

  In Gen 49:8-10, we see the future for Judah, as Jesus was foretold to come from David, who was of Judah, this here says of Judah, "the scepter will not turn aside from Judah, neither the commander's staff from between his feet, until Shi'loh comes, and to HIM the obedience of the peoples will belong." - now that appears to be foretelling of Jesus

  Then in vs 22, speaks of the future of Joseph (read about Josephs life too, prior to all of this), but says about his decendents(only putting parts but several paragraphs long if you read it all, "offshoot of a fruit bearing tree, the archers kept harrassing him and shot at him and kept harboring animosity towards him, yet his bow was in a permanent place, from the hands of the powerful one of Jacob, from there is the sheperd, the stone of Israel. He is from teh God of your father, and he will help you and he is with the Almighty, and he will bless you with teh blessings of the heaven above. the blessings of your father will indeed be superior to the blessings of the eternal mountains and the ornament of the indefinitely lasting hills. They will continue upon the head of Joseph, even upon the crown of the head of the one singled out from his brothers.

  WHAT IS ALL OF THAT TALKING ABOUT? I will get the answer eventually, if nobody has been on that yet. If it was not for the scripture of Judah talking about Shiloh, I would of thought perhaps it was referring to Jesus. I have a very very strong feeling there is a big significance to that scripture. I am starting to get some ideas and feelings in line with other scriptures, but want to see what others may think or if anyone has got to this yet.
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  EndofMysteries

  Something to think about.....I have to reread where David (of Judah I believe) was told the savior would come from him, or who would come from his line. But Joseph was of Judah, but he was an adopted father of Jesus, blood line would of been who Mary decended from, who did Mary come from?
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  snowbird

  Genesis 49:22 Joseph is a wild donkey,
  a wild donkey by a spring,
  spirited donkeys on a hill.
  The archers with malice attacked,
  shooting their hate-tipped arrows;
  But he held steady under fire,
  his bow firm, his arms limber,
  With the backing of the Champion of Jacob,
  the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel.
  The God of your father—may he help you!
  And may The Strong God—may he give you his blessings,
  Blessings tumbling out of the skies,
  blessings bursting up from the Earth—
  blessings of breasts and womb.
  May the blessings of your father
  exceed the blessings of the ancient mountains,
  surpass the delights of the eternal hills;
  May they rest on the head of Joseph, on the brow of the one consecrated among his brothers MSG

  Who is the Champion of Jacob, the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel? The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

  Joseph was disliked by his half-brothers. Who came to the aid of Joseph? The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

  Jesus was disliked by His half-brothers (Psalm 69 and John 7). Who came to the aid of Jesus of Nazareth? The Father.

  Sylvia
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  parakeet

  EndofMysteries:

  You're the kind of person that sees Jesus in a potato chip.
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  EndofMysteries

  Snowbird yes it seems to be pointing to Jesus.

  But he is said to have been of Judah, not of the tribe of Joseph. Trying to figure why both the prophecies seems to point ot him, yet they are two different tribes.

  To get a little more deep, and to further show that there must be something very deep here, “And I will make the house of Judah superior, and the house of Joseph I shall save. And I will give them a dwelling, for I will show them mercy.” (Zech. 10:6

  And Ezekiel’s vision of the division of the land, Joseph is not named,but his two sons Manasseh and Ephraim, who occupy the fourth and fifth allotments. However, in the city Jehovah-shammah a gate is named after Joseph and none after his sons. In Ezekiel’s vision of the reunifying of Jehovah’s people, Joseph is spoken of as chief of the one part of the nation and Judah as the chief of the other part. (Ezek. 48:4-6, 32; 37:15-26)
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  snowbird

  There are plenty of deep things in the Bible.

  Who was Melchizedek?

  What is the meaning of the name Shem? Ezekiel's temple?

  Why was the tribe of Simeon left out in the Blessing of Moses?

  Why are Dan and Ephraim left out in the numbering of the 144K who sing the Song of Moses?

  This type stuff fascinates me, also.

  Happy hunting and digging.

  Sylvia
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  Larsinger58

  And the ANSWER is-- Two advents of the messiah-king. It deals with the messiah in the flesh in the first and second coming. Simply put, Jesus comes through the tribe of Judah at the 1st coming and through the tribe of Joseph for his second coming. That's all this is.

  But you need to research what is already noted in Jewish tradition who always recognized there were TWO redeemers, like at this site

  http://www.moshiach.com/topics/in-depth/moshiach-ben-yossef.php

  Google "moschiach ben yosef (or Joseph)" and "moschiach ben Judah (or David)" and you'll find much written about this based on Genesis 49 in Jewish exegetical writings.

  But we can solve this ourselves by paying close attention to Genesis 49. It says the scepter would remain with Judah UNTIL Shiloh comes. Now if this were a reference to Jesus Christ at the 1st coming then the scepter would still be in Judah since Jesus was of the line of Judah. So "until Shiloh" means that there will be a change from Judah to another tribe. What other tribe that is is not mystery. It's the tribe of Joseph. So "Shiloh" is the second coming messiah out of the tribe of Joseph. This, therefore, proves that Jesus must return in the flesh again, and through the tribe of Joseph to be fulfilled. This contradicts current WTS teachings that Jesus will never return in the flesh but that his second coming is spiritual.

  Of course, this belief identifies them specifically with the prophesied "antichrist" as 1 John clearly says...

  2 Y OU gain the knowledge of the inspired expression from God by this: Every inspired expression that confesses Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh originates with God, 3 but every inspired expression that does not confess Jesus does not originate with God. Furthermore, this is the antichrist’s [inspired expression] which YOU have heard was coming, and now it is already in the world.

  Fulfillment. Right now JWs believe JC arrived in 1914 and they say he did not arrive in the flesh, so they fulfill this prophecy.

  LS
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  Larsinger58

  HOW IS THE 2ND COMING MESSIAH BORN IN THE TRIBE OF JOSEPH?

  A bit complicated but for the record.

  As you know, Jesus said "some standing here would not die" until he arrived. He meant that literally. Some from the 1st century called the "living" would never die at all. That included John and Paul that we know for sure. But why? Why would Jesus keep some alive all that time?

  Well, one reason is because 144,000 members of the Bride Class must be natural Jews, 12,000 from each tribe. These 144,000 make up the "root" of the tree which Isa 6:13 assigns the value of 1/10th. Thus 1/10th of the entire Bride class is 144K and the entire number, 90% gentiles, is 1,440,00. But the 12 tribes didn't exist as 12 tribes even in Jesus' day. While that is true, it still only takes one individual to become a nation just as the original 12 brothers were individuals. So in order to rebuild the 12 tribes, individuals who had lineage back to the original 12 tribes were selected to live down to our day and then marry into the modern population which in 200-300 years could produce over a million descendants, especially if the families were large, and that is precisely what Jehovah indicated, that he would "speed it up in its own time..."

  ISA 60v22 " 22 The little one himself will become a thousand, and the small one a mighty nation. I myself, Jehovah, shall speed it up in its own time.”

  My great grandmother had 17 childrens, my aunt had 18 children. So you can see if God was going to "speed it up" in its own time with these descendants have really large families, it wouldn't take long before maybe several million in each tribe were present during the 2nd coming.

  How the second coming works -- At the first coming Christ is born as an infant so that he has no human father and is perfect. But that is only necessary once and he gives up that perfect body in sacrifice. In order to re-enter the flesh at the second coming, therefore, he simply takes up the body and identity of one of his chosen servants. One of the elect who has been tested for faithfulness until the death allows Christ to express himself physically through him. In the Bible this is the "prodigal son" and "Lazarus". This individual is a descendant of the new tribe of Joseph.

  That's how it works. But even so, since it is the same person, Christ maintains the "legal right" to the throne of David.

  LS
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  Larsinger58

  Here is an example of how obvious it is to Jews that there are two messiahs, from the link I provided earlier.

  Moshiach Ben Yosef

  Jewish tradition speaks of two redeemers, each one called Moshiach. Both are involved in ushering in the Messianic era. They are Moshiach ben Dovid and Moshiach ben Yosef. What is the difference between them? The term Moshiach unqualified always refers to Moshiach ben David (Moshiach the descendant of David) of the tribe of Judah. He is the actual (final) redeemer who shall rule in the Messianic age. All that was said in our text relates to him. Moshiach ben Yosef (Moshiach the descendant of Joseph) of the tribe of Ephraim (son of Joseph), is also referred to as Moshiach ben Ephrayim, Moshiach the descendant of Ephraim. [2] He will come first, before the final redeemer, and later will serve as his viceroy. [3]

  Thus Jewish tradition understands even more specifically the messiah would come through the lineage of Ephraim! Thus we see in Revelation where the 12 tribes are mentioned with 12,000 from each tribe that Ephraim is not mentioned, but Joseph's other son, Manesseh is! Instead, Joseph himself is mentioned as a tribe. This just indicates the messiah would come through Ephraim and fulfill the prophecy about the messiah coming through Joseph. Joseph is substituted for the tribe of Ephraim.

  Of course, both Ephraim and Manesseh were half Egyptian. Thus it is fulfilled a second time, "Out of EGYPT I called my son."

  Now keep in mind the Jewish commentators who do recognize the 2 messiahs likely are not going to understand exactly how it works out so they speculate the details of fulfillment. But it is important that it is very recognizable in scripture and for the most part, all of Christendom including JWs totally ignore this reference because it doesn't fit their concept of Jesus Christ returning in the flesh and ruling for 1000 years on the earth as a human. So they avoid this.

  So it is great you noticed this and bring it up! The Bible teaches the 2nd coming messiah is in the flesh and out of the tribe of Joseph. The actual fulfillment is unusual since Christ takes up the body of one of his followers to accomplish this, but still it is fulfilled.

  LS
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  EndofMysteries

  I think it 'could' be related to that. But a few things which seem to contradict in the bible about this. When Jesus left earth, he floated up, and told his disciples he would return the same way he leaves, which seems to say that he would be seen desceneding out of heaven for the battle.

  I don't think I need to quote them, but tons of scriptures about him and his father making their abode inside the elect, and that the elect are the temple. Then Jesus said he would 'be with his disciples UNTIL the great tribulation'. In connecting those dots, it seems his return on earth could be within all the true elect, as they are 'in union' with him, and their personalities are changed. Then he is withdrawn at the great tribulation because he is then physically coming to earth.

  Anyway, appreciate your responses, as I do more research and reading, if what you say is true it will be revealed and/or in agreement with the holy spirit and scriptures I'm reading. Or both of our understandings are the beginning of the light getting brighter and may be somewhat of a combination of both. I believe this is what is spoken about in not forsaking the gathering of yourselves together and in accurate knowledge because true christians had group studies and they commented based on what they got from the scriptures and if everyone got the same thing, then it would feel overwhelmingly true, and if not all in agreement, going by their conscience. The unified part were the core basics of the truth, the undisputable truth which would have no varying.

  Unfortunately, instead of each congregation having study and getting knowledge by comparing what they seem to be getting from holy spirit and understanding to increase knowledge, ALL of the understanding and knowledge is based off of 8 men who probably barely have time to read the bible and study, and probably never have time for deep bible discussion.