by AwSnap 95 Replies latest jw friends
I think this is probably what you need: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/55372/1/586-587-the-K-I-S-S-approach-no-VAT4956-Ptolemy-Josephus-needed
This is a list of the WT "approved" kings along with their regnal years as found in WT publications which clearly does NOT add up to 607.
The link Georgiegirl provided above, from the poster "Allymom" uses all WT dates, if I remember correctly. Even if not, it's definitely the most concise argument I've seen.
Hi Aw Snap! Very rarely will you find the wtbs not support what it writes even if they have to omit historical information that is accepted by historical research from historians. So, when you research wtbs literature on 607, you find that it is supported by their findings, you will not find it not supported.
Sidebar: However when you go out side the wtbs research and research other unbias historians who do not have an agender to support, you will find that the wtbs is in error in their conclusions about how they arrive at 607.
Once 607 falls so does 1914 and 1919.
I answered your question in the first paragraph,the other two are separate issues to consider.
Walkin
To me arguing over the date of the fall of Jerusalem is a moot point when none of what that date was supposed to lead to ever happened. That Christ never came back in 1914 and selected the Watchtower as his only representatives on earth is obvious to anyone but a JW. It is like arguing over whether the Beatles recorded better music in the 80s or 90s and then finding out they weren't even together then. What is the point?
Awesome, thanks. I'm okay if I go to outside sources that tell me which WT literature to look at, but the jw I'm dealing with won't. So maybe I can check out the link provided, and act as if I just *found* it through the WT CD ROM
Iquit...I see why you said what you did (TRUST ME, I see what you're saying ). I guess the point is: do I want to have a , not even trying to discuss stuff like this and losing the ones I love the most ?
Or, do i choose to discuss according to their beliefs & have the self dignity and self love (not in a "i touch myself" kinda way) when they still choose to ditch me for their god? At least I will know I have tried. Of course, I don't want to go into it blindly. Hence, the reason I asked you all.
Like I said, I haven't even done the research for myself, so I like the idea of counting backwards, although I have a hard enough time counting forwards...or counting at all.
There was a great YouTube video that shows how, using the Watchtower CD-ROM, you can calculate the lengths of the Babylonian kings' reigns, starting from 539 B.C. Just type in "the last monarch of the Babylonian empire", something like that, and go from there. Ignoring the dates the Society gives and adding up the lengths of the reigns proves it.
The Bible says Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem in his 18th year, if I recall correctly. Evil-merodach, Neriglissar, Labashi-marduk, Nabonidus, whatever the order is, just add up the years mentioned by the Society. Nebuchadnezzar reigned 43 years, etc., etc. 587 becomes inescapable then, short of assuming there was some mystery king who ruled an extra 20 years that there is no historical data to support.
Either way, even if 1914 were legit, at the time, JWs were teaching that Jesus' invisible presence started 40 years earlier (in 1874) anyway (and this was an undeniable, established FACT, something they were very dogmatic about in the old literature)--and they continued teaching that for years after 1919. The other factor here is bias--no scholar, historian, or religious person(s) apart from JWs have anything at stake over this 607 vs. 587 issue. Given how JWs believe what they want to believe, I'm not inclined to think that they're right about that date, and certainly not right about its relevance.
Hope that helps a little.
SD-7
AwSnap: First off, there are a LOT of complicated details around the chronology question, but i would say that the complications arrise from apologists who try to sidetrack the argument into needless details because the facts are against them. If you go into these details you need to be very bright and brave to look through the smoke. I havent gone through the process, but i doubt i would have been able to do it :-(. However, and i say this as an atheist, i think the bible is pretty clear on the point, so thats the route i personally have desided to go.
First make them agree to the statement: 'there are no secular evidence (historical, archeological) which point to 607. Everything point to 586-7'. That should be quite easy, since its pretty much written directly in 'insight to the scriptures'. Notice there is a lot more evidence than described in insight, and what they write about get the usual 'jw treatment', but that is a side point. Anyway, now you can properly make them agree that the only reason one should accept 607 is because the jw view of jeremiahs 70 years is the only one supported by the bible.
This should open up to the second part of the discussion: The jw view of jeremiahs 70 years. here you need to go into A FEW details, since you need to know both the jw view of the 70 years AND one or more alternative viewpoints to get a proper understanding of it. Fortunately this is quite easy, but it needs to be done. Basically the questions you need answer to is: (I hope my suggestions are right, please check it for yourself!)
a) What did the 70 years consist of? (jw: Total destruction, alt.: a CONDITIONAL prophecy with 70 years of servitude to babylon, destruction if jews did not comply, but in all cases not complete desolation of every person in judea)
b) To whom did it apply? (jw: Only israel, alt: a lot of countries as the bible say black on white)
c) When? (jw: 607-537, alt: 609-539, 70 years in all instances)
d) What event define their beginning? (jw: hell of a good question, i believe they think it was a particular deportation to egypt, but you might want to ask your friends. alt: Babylonians arose to world domination)
e) What event define their end? (jw: Jews praying at a specific temple site, alt: babylons fall and daniel praying for forgiveness).
After you got these answers pegged down both on the jw interpretation of jeremiah and the 'alternative', you are in for a real shocker: no big book are required, just pick up the bible and read the book of jeremiah (which must be the ultimative source on jeremiahs), especially the chapters after 25. Keep the above answers in mind, and ask yourself which viewpoint is the most in line with the bible. It was a great surprice to me how easy it all fit with the non-jw viewpoint, for example the image of the wodden and iron burden jeremiah put around his neck.
I think that is the path you want to stear them unto: Ask them to answer questions a-e) above based on the bible, perhaps offer quotes in the bible that are not in line with the jw point of view.
To flesh out what i have called the alternative chronology, you should read this excelent book compiled by Doug Mason: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/186301/1/New-study-on-the-Babylonian-Exile-and-without-chronologies , he also wrote a couple of great posts a couple of months ago with 'hard' questions to the jw chronology.
JW litterature is IMHO not that inconsistent when it comes to chronology.. its just horribly complicated, confusing and leave out all the important stuff. Thats why i recommend the bible. One thing in print they get 100% wrong though: The king list from 539-607. If you ask them to tell you when the kings ruled, they wont be able to do so because its hidden very well, and if they finally manage to do it, the king list will point to one date for the fall or jerusalem: 587.
I hope i didnt stray to far from the spirit of your question... and i hope i am correct with regard to my answers to a-d)! its a couple of weeks since i read up on it last time :-).
Sincerely and please write how it went if you feel like it!
:Was that coming straight from the Society or did it come from one of Jehovah's Witnesses? I'm not sure that was the answer I was looking for if it hasn't come straight from the Society (however, I will read it). I don't think the Witnesses I'm speaking with are willing to look to the internet for help. They probably only want to use WT official literature.
Well, here you are then. This proves beyond any doubt the 587 BC date using ONLY JW literature:
Farkel
This was the first point I tried to point out to my mom and it got me nowhere. All she could tell me is that everybody else has it wrong. I watched the youtube video and used their suggestion and tried to prove to my mom just using the Watchtower publications. I came up with 587 B.CE. just like they did. My mom didn't buy it and she went online and searched 607/587 B.C. and came back to me and said I was looking at apostate literature. I researched the date in my history book from my college class, 3 different Encyclopedias at the local library and I looked at some other websites online. All of them agreed on 587/586.
I think it was www.4jehovah.org (found that to be a good website for references, as well as the Christian Research Institute), but I found some information concerning the questions a-e that are in bohm's post. I read for myself in the Bible in the book of Jeremiah that more than one nation was involved during the 70 years, which matched the information I found when I went to the library. Once again, they glossed over the information and just picked out what proved their point. I think its in the May 2009 Awake, but in there they mention Jerusalem being destroyed in 607. I looked up the quote on the British Musem website and everything was the same, except the date. Interestingly, they didn't explain why they did that in the article. That's because they know that their loyal followers will not question anything they print. So, you def. have to be one step ahead because they are so indoctrinated that they will spew out all this rehearsed crap without batting an eye. They know how to argue the Watchtower's viewpoint from the Bible very well. That's why I always found the congregation Bible study and the Watchtower Study to be so frustrating. They are just reading what's in the paragraphs and don't let it be a young child commenting. You can just hear the approval from them hearing the children read the "answers" out the paragraph like they came up with the answer all by themselves! No orignal thought. It's sickening. I wish I could go downstairs to my dad's office and just grab all the bound volumes, bibles and magazines and just burn them all in the backyard!
As everyone else has pointed out, proving that 1874, 1878, 1910,1914, 1919, 1925, 1975, and I guess we can now add 2034 is wrong may be easier than trying to prove 607 B.C. I haven't researched this new date for myself yet, so I can't say so with certainty. It's not as obvious as the others ones were. I guess they've learned to be more subtle so that us apostates can't point to any one thing.
This is a great resource:
http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/evolution-of-606-to-607-bce-in.html
