DOES THE BIBLE really really EXIST?

by Terry 87 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Terry
    Terry

    So many of us have swallowed the premise of BIBLE transmission from God when it smells fishy.

    Without an uncorrupt original text we are left with no standard. We have squat.

    By "squat" I mean bald assertions, unfounded conjecture and piles upon piles of "fine tuning" over the centuries.

    There is a huge industry called APOLOGETICS fiendishly prolific at calming fears about Bible related problems.

    Lee Strobel (The Case for Faith, The Case for Christ)

    Josh McDowell (Evidence that Demands a Verdict)

    R.C.Sproul (Defending your Faith)

    Chuck Colson, Norm Geisler (Apologetics Study Bible)

    Dean Hardy (Stand your Ground)

    When it comes to the key issue about the disappearance of original texts, to a man it is PASSED over with a flood of non-related noise about how many wonderful COPIES of copies of copies of copies exist.

    Blah blah blah, as though it were a non-issue that these "copies" cannot be verified.

    On top of this they commit a huge fallacy of Logic by simply insisting God MUST HAVE preserved "His word" free of distortion. Oh, really?

    God didn't see fit to preserve His Church without distortion. God didn't see fit to preserve the integrity of the Popes, bishops and clergy who sold indulgences and bribed the laity with promises of forgiveness in exchange for money! The original Bible Text is no less secure!

    No, we need an uncorrupt standard to measure the distortion in our modern texts (recopied ad nauseum over centuries.)

    Consider this:

    How can you verify an inch is an inch without a Standard Ruler?

    I use to be a custom picture framer in an Art Gallery. A lady came in and had me build an expensive frame for an oil painting she had at home using the dimensions SHE gave me. I asked her to let me measure it first. She insisted she knew how to use a tape measure, thank you very much!

    I delivered the frame and got a phone call a day later.

    "This frame does NOT fit!" she complained angrily.

    I told her I folowed her dimensions exactly.

    "I don't care--it does NOT fit!"

    "Please bring in the painting you are framing along with the frame and I'll see what went wrong."

    She did.

    The painting was measured wrong, of course, by the lady herself.

    I asked her what she measured it with.

    She reached into her purse and pulled out one of those tape measures a seamstress might use for dressmaking.

    She laid it along the edge of the painting and stretched out end to end.

    "YOU SEE!" she practically screamed. "Exactly what I told you!"

    I took the tape measure from her and stared at it.

    IT WAS ELASTIC! As you stretched it tight-----IT STRETCHED!

    What kind of nonsense tape measure stretches???

    I took out my metal tape measure and laid it on the edge of the painting.

    "Watch this" I told her and had her read the dimension I got with the standard tape measure.

    She blinked a few times and shrugged.

    "Very well. Just cut my painting down to fit it and let's be done with this."

    Doh!

    Is it not reasonable to expect the same thing has happend for millennia? Using a tampered, corrupt Standard to "prove" various ideas, schemes, doctrines and policies of church and state---the bible has become a lump of non-standard elastic!

    Without a STANDARD to compare your so-called Bible Texts against for verification---you have a NON-STANDARD copy that has been STRETCHED for two thousand years to fit whims of doctrine and corruptions of dispute! Throw into the mix how corrupt the men who ran the Church turned out to be and you don't have to be dirty minded to suspect foul play in EVERYTHING they touched....including Scripture.

  • Wasanelder Once
    Wasanelder Once

    My God Terry, I have four Bibles and I know they exist. As for whether the Bible is the preserved word of God? Well, Jesus said so, so there. I loves my Jesus. W.Once

  • Terry
    Terry

    How many people think/know that Paul wrote his epistles first and the Gospels were afterward?

    Does Paul, in any of his writings, demonstrate any knowledge of the Gospels at all?

    Does Paul seem to know any details of Jesus life? Does he quote him?

    I'd love to hear your comments and thoughts on this.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    How many people think/know that Paul wrote his epistles first and the Gospels were afterward?

    Yes, 1Thessolonians being the oldest of his letters and perhaps the oldest "christian document" written ( 30-40 AD)

    Does Paul, in any of his writings, demonstrate any knowledge of the Gospels at all?

    Why would he? Jesus came to him directly and only years after that did he even fo talk to any apostle.

    Does Paul seem to know any details of Jesus life? Does he quote him?

    Paul's speaks of HIS revelation given to him by Jesus.

    I'd love to hear your comments and thoughts on this.

    The church should do a better job of explaining that Christianity owes as much to Paul as it does to "direct" apostles.

    Most people do NOT know that the Gospels are older than the letters, most people don't know the history of the Gospels or even the controversies or the writings of the early church Fathers.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    How many people think/know that Paul wrote his epistles first and the Gospels were afterward?

    Paul wrote no Gospels. The Gospels are attributed to Mark, Luke, John, and Matthew. The early Pauline letters are the oldest part of the Christian canon. If Paul had written an account of Jesus' life, it would have to have been based on other witnesses, he wasn't part of the movement during Jesus' life.

    Does Paul, in any of his writings, demonstrate any knowledge of the Gospels at all?

    If the Pauline epistles were written before the gospels, then that would be the the most likely reason.

    Does Paul seem to know any details of Jesus life? Does he quote him?

    I'm not sure where you are trying to go with here, but he mentions as being a part of his audience how many of the people he wrote to had been direct witnesses of Jesus' life.

    BTS

  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney

    The Bible believers seem to be missing the point: There Are No Originals and there is no way of knowing how many generations of copies there are between the originals and the oldest preserved writings. Secondary and minor point: The gospels, supposedly written by eyewitnesses, were penned many many decades after Christ's death. Even if that was verifiably true, who can write an accurate account with accurate quotes about something that they witnessed for a handful of years several decades earlier?

  • Terry
    Terry
    How many people think/know that Paul wrote his epistles first and the Gospels were afterward?

    Yes, 1Thessolonians being the oldest of his letters and perhaps the oldest "christian document" written ( 30-40 AD)

    Does Paul, in any of his writings, demonstrate any knowledge of the Gospels at all?

    Why would he? Jesus came to him directly and only years after that did he even fo talk to any apostle.

    Does Paul seem to know any details of Jesus life? Does he quote him?

    Paul's speaks of HIS revelation given to him by Jesus.

    I'd love to hear your comments and thoughts on this.

    The church should do a better job of explaining that Christianity owes as much to Paul as it does to "direct" apostles.

    My point is that Paul would have been exposed to any existing Gospels with their many personal details about Jesus. Paul would have quoted Jesus in proving his own points directly---IF he were aware.

    The writings of Paul are in a vacuum--as it were--in relation to the Gospels.

    Paul claims his Jesus came to him DIRECTLY---but--as far as his writings go--the Gospel versions of Jesus are AS THOUGH THEY NEVER EXISTED!

    See the importance of this?

  • Terry
    Terry

    For persons interested in an explantion of biblical inconsistencies:

    http://www.jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/jhcjp.htm

    The Jesus Puzzle is rather fascinating!

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    Paul would have quoted Jesus in proving his own points directly---IF he were aware.

    Two occasions where Paul quotes Jesus:

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+11:24-25&version=NIV

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2020:35&version=NIV

    Let me add that John wrote a Gospel, yet he does not quote it in his epistles. Gospel, and epistle, different types of writing for different purposes.

    And there is my post limit for the day, so I won't be able to respond until tomorrow.

    BTS

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Terry,

    You post a valid question.

    I don't think Paul followed any "prescribed" preaching pattern ALA the WT rules and regulations book ;)

    He spoke and did what he believed Jesus told him, any other info, for him, woudl have been "extra" to the message he was given by Jesus and to job he was told to do.

    It is true that Paul never mentiones the sermon on the mount, the ressurection of Lazarus, what happened at the Lord's supper, etc. in his letters.

    Only Paul knows why, maybe because he choose to focus on Jesus's message of the ressurection and not the messages of Jesus's life, who knows?

    The gospels were put together after he died but I am sure the oral tradtions were around, though he himself was not "in" the Jerusalem community to h ear them, but we are just specualting one way or another.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit