The 144K

by PSacramento 19 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  PSacramento

  Yeah, I know, another thread....

  I really don't want to discuss the "annointed" 144k, I wanna discuss a few passages related to them and the great crowd.

  First off:

  The 144,000 of Israel Sealed

  7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back u the four winds of the earth, v that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending w from the rising of the sun, with x the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, 3 saying, y “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants 1 of our God z on their foreheads.” 4 And a I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

  5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,

  12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,

  12,000 from the tribe of Gad,

  6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,

  12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,

  12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,

  7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,

  12,000 from the tribe of Levi,

  12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,

  8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,

  12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,

  12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.
• 

  PSacramento

  So, we see that the 144k are NOT in heaven at this point but on earth, for the angel tells the 4 angels to hold back the winds tell he is able to seal all 144k.

  John did not see them at THIS point, only heard their number and where they were from.

  This is kind of important because, in naming where they are from John is making it clear that HE sees them as proper Jews from those "proper" tribes.

  Some commentaries view this as a "census" of sorts, probably an "army" census since the census in the OT where for that purpose.

  Whether the number is literal or not is up to interpretation, we do know that it is a specific number and John choose it for a reason, just as he named the tribes for a reason.

  These chosen ones to be sealed are NOT in heaven and are YET to be sealed at this point.
• 

  PSacramento

  The great crowd:

  A Great Multitude from Every Nation

  9 After this I looked, and behold, b a great multitude that no one could number, c from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, d clothed in white robes, with e palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, f “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and g the four living creatures, and they h fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 i saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

  13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, d clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of j the great tribulation. k They have washed their robes and l made them white m in the blood of the Lamb.

  15 “Therefore they are before the throne of God,

  and n serve him day and night in his temple;

  and he who sits on the throne o will shelter them with his presence.

  16 p They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore;

  q the sun shall not strike them,

  nor any scorching heat.

  17 For the Lamb in the midst of the throne r will be their shepherd,

  and he will guide them to springs of s living water,

  and t God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
• 

  PSacramento

  The great crowd is in heaven.

  We know that not only because John sees them there but also because he uses the words:

  histemi,

  enopion

  thronos

  Standing Before the Throne

  The exact same words used when he saw the cherabims and the seven spirts of God.
• 

  BluesBrother

  Interesting ....eg..

  Rev 4.5 " and [there are] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, and these mean the seven spirits of God"....[said to be Heaven]

  Rev 4.6 " And before the throne there is, as it were, a glassy sea like crystal." ....[said to be Heaven]

  Rev 4.10." the twenty-four elders fall down before the One seated upon the throne and worship the One that lives forever and ever, and they cast their crowns before the throne, saying: 11 “You are worthy....".............[.said to be Heaven]

  Rev 7.9 " After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne ".......[said to be on Earth]

  Rev 7.11 " And all the angels were standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell upon their faces before the throne ...[said to be Heaven]

  Rev 7.13 " “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God" ....[said to be on Earth]

  Rev 8.3 " And another angel arrived and stood at the altar, having a golden incense vessel; and a large quantity of incense was given him to offer it with the prayers of all the holy ones upon the golden altar that was before the throne. " ...[s aid to be Heaven]

  Rev 14.2 " and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne "...[said to be Heaven the 144k]

  Inconsistent...isn't it???
• 

  PSacramento

  Now, whereas the 144k have YET to go through their test or be sealed at this time, the great crowd has come out of the great tribulation.

  Though the chronology of this can be viewed as subjective.

  The great crowd is made distinct from the 144k, they are from every nation, tribe, peoples and languages, whereas the 144K are from the tribes of the sons of Israel.

  SOme have postualted that the 144K are the christian converts from withing Judaism and the great crowd are the christians from every where else.
• 

  PSacramento

  BB,

  it you mean the WT view of "before the throne" is inconsistent, you are right.
• 

  PSacramento

  Now, in chapter 14:

  The Lamb and the 144,000

  14 Then I looked, and behold, on v Mount Zion w stood the Lamb, and with him x 144,000 who y had his name and his Father’s name written z on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven a like the roar of many waters and b like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of c harpists playing on their harps, 3 and they were singing d a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. e No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for f they are virgins. It is these g who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as h firstfruits for God and the Lamb, 5 and i in their mouth no lie was found, for they are j blameless.
• 

  PSacramento

  There is no reason to think that these 144k are NOT the original ones specified in Chapter 7.

  They are now with Jesus ( the lamp) on Mt Zion and still NOT in heaven.

  Here John goes into a little more detail about them: they are those that have not be defiled by women ( a charateristic of the OT warriors), that are the first fruits for God and Jesus, which menas there will be more. They are blameless and do not lie.

  The qualities of "virginal", blameless and truthful ( no lies or deceit) they have in common with the selected few that are chosen to battle in God's name in the OT.

  The virginal quality is take as being a methphore for being pure of spirit, of course that is just a "guess", there is no reason to think that John was not being literal, but most scholars believe he was.
• 

  snowbird

  May I say something?

  Thank you.

  WT teaches that the 24 elders are a composite of the 144K, but the 24 elders can't master the song the 144K are singing!

  ???????

  I believe the above description of them matches what is found here:

  Zephaniah 3:9-13 "In the end I will turn things around for the people.
  I'll give them a language undistorted, unpolluted, Words to address God in worship
  and, united, to serve me with their shoulders to the wheel. They'll come from beyond the Ethiopian rivers,
  they'll come praying— All my scattered, exiled people
  will come home with offerings for worship. You'll no longer have to be ashamed
  of all those acts of rebellion. I'll have gotten rid of your arrogant leaders.
  No more pious strutting on my holy hill! I'll leave a core of people among you
  who are poor in spirit— What's left of Israel that's really Israel.
  They'll make their home in God. This core holy people
  will not do wrong. They won't lie,
  won't use words to flatter or seduce. Content with who they are and where they are,
  unanxious, they'll live at peace." MSG

  Looks like a re-gathering of God's scattered people, the Jews, to me.

  Sylvia