by John Doe 22 Replies latest jw friends
not the governments place through taxation as a liberal would have it. Is it wrong for governments around the world to donate to rebuild Haiti? Just asking. Perhaps it is better to give up on an area that seems beyond repair. What would Jesus do as a socialist?
Now if government is bad, and people run governments, does that make people bad? Just asking.
No problem. Those are good questions.
:Is it wrong for governments around the world to donate to rebuild Haiti? Just asking.
As long as it doesn't involve social engineering. But if you think Governments provide all of the help, you are mistaken. The Red Cross and the Salvation Army and the Mormons and the Catholic Church (and many more) always move in to help in situations like that. Jehovah's Witnesses hand out books and magazines and go home smugly thinking they did a good thing, even if one of the victims had to eat one of the books to survive.
:Perhaps it is better to give up on an area that seems beyond repair.
In the case of New Orleans, you might have a good argument. I've been there. It is below sea level and sinking. It is a bad location and it is a prime target for every wet windstorm, not to mention hurricanes that hits the area. The water table is so high, they can't even bury their dead in the ground. That's why the dead are always put to rest in mausoleums, i.e above ground. I've been to those mausoleums. Some of the tombs date back to the 1700's. It's always been a bad place to build a city.
:What would Jesus do as a socialist?
Who gives a shit? Jesus is dead. He did magic tricks. He wasn't concerned about politics in the least. Don't speculate. It is a waste of time.
:Now if government is bad, and people run governments, does that make people bad? Just asking.
The answer is not necessarily that people are bad. But possibly that people are stupid, OR that government became bad after being entrenched for so long. People are bad if they don't throw the bad bastards in government out once the people know they are bastards however.
Farkel
:Now if government is bad, and people run governments, does that make people bad? Just asking.
I don't have time to answer the rest cus its late, but for this one... people are human.. unfortunately humans sin... however, the humans have something the government doesn't.... a controlling authority.. but who governs the government? Yes people run the government, and they are inherently evil, so they do evil things and if they are the ones in charge, then they will do evil things without someone punishing them...
then if the government becomes tyranical, ie mao, hitler, stalin, any of the african/middle eastern war lords... etc...etc..., there is no controlling authority aside from a stronger foreign power.. and the UN is not a controlling authority and never will be (unless you consider writing strongly worded letters authority).
Therefore, they are free to do whatever they want to their people. Look back at history when we had the upwards of 75% income tax during world war i and a whopping 94% at the highest level during world war II ... so if you don't think its possible for OUR government to take everything from us and find a way to keep it... think again...
Our founding fathers developed our government for the people by he people simply to provide for the common defense, preserve life, liberty and *pursuit* of happiness (not to provide happiness) and to regulate interstate commerce. Nowhere in our founding documents does it give the government permission to take tax money from an honest working citizen to give to a less fortunate.. because as seen over and over again throughout history, it leads down a very dark path...
Leave it to the populous to take care of its own, not the government...
:Are you familiar with the "poor laws" of colonial times?
I've read up on them briefly, and it doesn't take much research to show that they're simply social welfare programs instituted from about 1500 to 1900, and just like today there were several government studies done in europe where it was believed that the "poor laws" made the "poor" problem worse by providing free money/services to people who were otherwise able bodied... anyways I'll write more on that tomorrow.. off to bed
Matt 25 is the only time that Jesus mentioned that "deeds" that will be found worthy.
Notice the lack of "preaching".
To take care of those that CAN'T take care of themselves, to clothe and feed the cold and hungry, to be company to the lonely, all these are the Chrisitan traits and deeds that Jesus found worthy.
Add to them forgiveness and love for all and you have what the Son of God felt as the deeds you shoudl do to be worthy of salvation.
It was a lesson in social concsious, not something to be regulated by government or authorites or legislation, for that is what brings "dead works", but deeds motivated by love and kindness.
Matthew 25:40 Then the King will say, 'I'm telling the solemn truth: Whenever you did one of these things to someone overlooked or ignored, that was me—you did it to me.' MSG
Imo, this highlights the individual's responsibility to show love, kindness, hospitality, and concern toward those needing it.
It is definitely NOT a mandate for the type of handouts we see going on in the USA.
For instance, I know of people who absolutely refuse to work; it is those who shouldn't be given any kind of aid! Why should the State take care of anyone's lazy butt from the womb to the grave?
I often use the situation in Haiti as teaching moments for my grand kids. As an example, I pointed to one lady who was cooking on a makeshift stove, hand washing clothes and bathing children from a communal spigot, and ironing from an improvised electric generator!
No matter our station in life, if we can do so, we should work and take care of ourselves and families. It takes away out innate dignity to have to depend on the State for subsistence. It is no coincidence that well-meaning welfare programs fail time and time again.
I think this is the message Conservatives are trying to get across to Liberals.
Thanks for reading.
Sylvia
‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.’ But he answered one of them and said, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil (envious) because I am good (generous)?’ So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.” (Matthew 20: 1-16, Jesus teaching his disciples)
Jesus was definitely pro-capitalism and pro-wealth ownership rights making it clear that the workers had no right to limit the good that an employer could do, if he so chose to.
What Snowbird said. It is an individual mandate, a personal ethic, not a political statement. As Jesus in John 18:36
"My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."
BTS
When a socialist government takes by force from the wealthy and gives to the poor, or bails out inefficient unionized industries, or salvages corporate banks with disastrous lending policies, or rescues spendthrift individuals who have borrowed themselves into crushing debt, or bails out those who overextended themselves in greed… then that government is a thief. Of course, the handout recipients will eagerly vote for such an “administration” and consider its actions admirable. But this situation literally penalizes the corporations and individuals who acted wisely and produced goods and services worth having without squandering or borrowing beyond their means. It is from the incomes and savings of these prudent sources that a socialist government must steal in order to reward the wastrels. It is the exact opposite of what is going to happen when the Lord comes on the Last Day, when the foolish losers will be laid to waste and the wise investors rewarded. (Matthew 25:14-30)
Governments also rob by means of inflation. Simply printing the money to provide the handouts, rather than taxing it from others, is government stealing because it devalues the currency, rewarding the foolish who blew their wealth while penalizing the prudent who saved their earnings, because those savings are now watered down by fiscally irresponsible “leadership.” Read:
Mt. 25: 27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away ° even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 25 is the only time that Jesus mentioned that "deeds" that will be found worthy....and you have what the Son of God felt as the deeds you should do to be worthy of salvation.
Working for Salvation is the surest way to lose it. - "by the works of the law shal no flesh be justified." Gal. 2:16
Instead of Jesus saying little about deeds..... He said plenty. In fact, Jesus has an entirely different seat of JUDGMENT that is reserved for BELIEVERS ONLY based on DEEDS. It is called the Bema seat. This judgment DOES NOT determine salvation it determines rewards (crowns).
Judgment for Believers - The
Judgment Seat of Christ
But why dost thou judge thy brother? … for we shall
all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it
is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall
bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
So then every one of us shall give account of himself
to God. - Romans 14: 10-12
For we must all appear before thejudgment seat of
Christ; that every one may receive the things done
in his body, according to that he hath done, whether
it be good or bad. - 1 Cor. 5: 10
It is clear by the context of both these scriptures
above that Paul was addressing believers within the
congregation, not unbelievers. The Judgment Seat of
Christ is where believers give an account of their
lives to Christ. This judgment, which is reserved for
believers only, does not determine salvation. A
person?s salvation is determined by (1) our agreeing
to allow Christ to substitute in our place and suffer
the just punishment due us (1 John 2:2), and (2) our
faith in him ALONE. Both are really just two sides
of the same coin:
And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said,
Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you:
this do in remembrance of me. - 1
Corinthians 11: 24 (KJV)
But as many as received him, to them gave he
power to become the sons of God, even to them
that believe on his name [Jesus]
- John 1:12
Many have found it helpful to re-read the above two
scriptures several times until they can fully grasp
their meaning. For the believer, Jesus has total
power to forgive sin (Matt. 9:6) and a believer will
never be condemned. Scripturally, this is literally
what the believer… believes in. Notice the present
and past tense in these additional scriptures:
There is therefore now no condemnation to them
which are in Christ Jesus - Romans 8:1
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my
word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath
everlasting life, and shall not come into
condemnation; but is passed from death unto life
- John 5: 24
We know that we have passed from death unto life -
1 John 3: 14
Isn?t that good news? This is the gospel that was
originally delivered unto the first Christians. It
cannot be changed without it being “another gospel”
(Gal. 1: 6, 7). This doesn't mean however that
believers are not judged. Remember, it is man?s
destiny to face judgment. Believer and unbeliever
alike are both appointed to such a fate:
…it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this
the judgment: - Hebrews 9: 27
However, at the Judgment Seat of Christ, unlike the
Great White Throne Judgment, this judgment is for
rewards, not condemnation. The rewards are based
on how faithfully believers served Christ the King (2
Timothy 2: 4, 5). The things believers will likely be
judged on are how well they obeyed the Great
Commission (Matthew 28:18-20), how victorious
they were overcoming sin (Romans 6:1-4), how well
they controlled their tongues (James 3:1-9), etc.
Speaking to born again believers, Paul makes this
point clear:
If any man's work abide which he hath built
thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer
loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by
fire. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and
that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
- 1 Corinthians 3: 14 – 16
The Bible
speaks of believers receiving crowns for different
things based on how faithfully they served Christ:
an incorruptible crown - 1 Corinthians 9:25
crown of joy - Philippians 4:1
crown of rejoicing - 1 Thessalonians 2:19
crown of righteousness - 2 Timothy 4:8
crown of life - James 1:12
crown of glory - 1 Peter 5:4
hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy
crown. – Rev. 3:11
That last scripture above indicates that believers can
lose crowns (rewards); but no man can take their
salvation. (Compare with John 10: 28) While the
scriptures do not elaborate on exactly what the
crowns entail, we can be sure that when the Creator
of the universe bestows a reward, it will not be a
cheap gift. But rather, will likely involve inestimable
beauty and delight to its recipient.... for eternity.
Heaven is not socialist or communist. What Christians
do here yields eternal dividends
The Parable of the Vineyard teaches us that in times of unemployment it's up to employers to hire workers. There's no mention of an intervening government.
